New CL: fantasy price
Comments
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I've just read in the New CLs list in the club magazine, as they laughingly call the junk mail self advertising masquerading as a magazine, that there is a new CL at a garden centre in Northwich, Cheshire. The price is an eye watering £20 a night. Approaching
club site price for a CL. Hope no one gives, pricing like this will destroy the whole ethos of the wonderful CL network.Write your comments here...We stayed at Catershill farm cl between Narberth and Kilgetty in Pembrokeshire this year.The site fee was £12.00 per night electric was metered and cost us £9.00 over 14 nights .The site was very clean and well mowed cuttings picked
up.Excellent cdp.Washin machines and drier(coin operated) and shower and toilets.The owners are very nice and friendly and if you have any problems very helpfull.So i can't work out why the £20.00 plus is coming from.0 -
Fisherman - Am I correct to understand that you view NT sites and Haven Touring as competitors to the CL network? "We have used Cls less this year mainly becasue of pricing..... Better options out thrre. N/T,Haven etc who are competitors"
Although I haven't visited either type of site myself, a review of their offers online indicates that their sites are more akin to Club Sites (in terms of the number of pitches & facilities) and whilst they may be in great places, offer a good experience and at times have good-value-offer, they would not exist (me thinks) if they were restricted to 5 vans.
What is interesting is their pricing. NT seem to implement weekday / weekend / Bank Hol pricing around the £20 mark whereas Haven have very 'dynamic' pricing that can vary from super-cheap to over £60/night (even for a simple grass non-EHU pitch) for a family in high season. Maybe I'm missing something?
Are there any real competitors (in terms of an organisation rather than independents) to the CL network from the Club (excepting the C&CC) that offers the 'small' experience and a wide choice around the country?
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credibleFisherman - Am I correct to understand that you view NT sites and Haven Touring as competitors to the CL network? "We have used Cls less this year mainly becasue of pricing..... Better options out thrre. N/T,Haven etc who are competitors"
Although I haven't visited either type of site myself, a review of their offers online indicates that their sites are more akin to Club Sites (in terms of the number of pitches & facilities) and whilst they may be in great places, offer a good experience and at times have good-value-offer, they would not exist (me thinks) if they were restricted to 5 vans.
What is interesting is their pricing. NT seem to implement weekday / weekend / Bank Hol pricing around the £20 mark whereas Haven have very 'dynamic' pricing that can vary from super-cheap to over £60/night (even for a simple grass non-EHU pitch) for a family in high season. Maybe I'm missing something?
Are there any real competitors (in terms of an organisation rather than independents) to the CL network from the Club (excepting the C&CC) that offers the 'small' experience and a wide choice around the country?
I appreciate that you were addressing Fisherman but in answer to you last point , I see the other clubs Temporary Holiday Sites as the main competitor to the CL today.
Although THS’s have been around together with weekend rallies for a long time I believe there has been a fundamental change that has happened only recently.
Many campers who take the hobby seriously and have perhaps invested considerable amounts in their units are members of both clubs. This means any barrier to entry to the C&CC THS’s is minimal.
Whilst the rational for visiting CL's will vary from member to member, a certain percentage enjoy the simpler kind of sites and a percentage (who may or may not be on a budget) look for low cost camping. Probably a smaller percentage like myself have come up through tents to caravans to MotorHomes and perhaps back to caravans. This group is far from short of money but may be on a fixed income and have identified that low cost camping means that additional meals out, visits or nights away are possible.
What I think has changed is the average cost of a CL has risen to the extent that many have begun to look for alternatives. This is not the opportunity to discuss the merits or otherwise of multi facility CL’s.
The last couple of years has been quite remarkable in not only the number of campers but the type of campers that are complaining about CL prices. Some of the most vociferous could afford to buy the CL never mind a pitch.
I personally have never noticed fellow campers talking about CL's as having "lost the plot" before and it has quite shocked me. I do not say this to antagonise you in any way but to bring to your attention dissatisfaction with current CL trends and what certainly appears to be a genuine movement away from CL's. Undoubtedly alternatives are now being actively explored. If this trend continues, then not only will CL’s lose customers but the Caravan Club will lose members. For many, it is/was the CL network that formed the basis of their attachment to the Caravan Club.
There are credible alternatives to the CL network and as with any business it is essential to court information from a wide range of opinions and unwise to listen to a single group (such as may frequent your own CL) because clearly you are offering what your particular customers are demanding. That really does not mean that all CL customers are demanding the same for the simple reason you will not encounter them to ask.
I sincerely hope you do not take this as a broadside at CL sites, it’s really the opposite. I wish them to continue and I would like to see a wide range of prices being offered. However it’s the average price that is turning some members towards alternatives that perhaps had not been contemplated before.
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I align with a lot of what Fysherman is saying, however I know that the rising CLpricing is often a reflection of the cost to run one. Many owners can't subsidies campers just because they can be welcome company.
Part of the issue is the 5 van limit, but I don’t think that is addressable without risking blowing the exemption away. The other is occupancy seems very low for many, there are not the takers willing to use 5 van sites frequently enough.
THS we use and run but they are seasonal, normally focused on school holidays. They are only an alternative to 5 van sites at times.
I accept that we need to face up to paying a bit more than some of us would like or lose more 5 van sites; I sense others don’t see it this way and only want a "deal", irrespective of what that will tramrail into happening.
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There probably needs to be a realisation that "penny buns" no longer cost a penny. Equally, the closer pricing gets to commercials/club sites, the harder it is to compete.
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If a CL charges £12 including electricity (and many do) that's 3 quid less than the round of four drinks I bought at lunchtime and I know which represents the better value.
£20 is higher than most CLs charge for certain but it's less than a steak in the pub down the road. It's just a bit more than two adult tickets to the odeon.
If the location is right I'll pay more.
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The new competition is charging £8 to £10 and often in better locations
I am going to back off now. I have heard what is being said by refugees from the caravan club. I would like now to hear more from caravan club members and what they anticipate will save the CL network from the closures that have been taking place (last two months excepted)
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Confess to being a tad disappointed our representative Cholsey has not replied. He did ask.
That's me done, said my piece and do I get involved in the club's management or just wave bye bye?
Spent my whole working life in meetings. Not sure I want to spend my retirement doing the same
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Fysh I think you would be an excellent addition to the club's management. I agree with much of what you say. Despite my post on the earlier page I do think that there is competition out there which will erode the traditional customer base of CLs.
As I'm still working with limited time off it is location that is my main factor in deciding where to stay and price is less of an issue. If the difference between two sites is less than the price of a pint I'm not quibbling. For others price is more of
an issue.0 -
I think a lot of people look for CLs based on price. We know that some are kitted up to go off grid and want the very best value they can find with really basic facilities.
I'm not in that category and like a HS and EHU at the very least. Consequently, if that pushes the price too high I'll stick with CC/C&CC/commercial sites. To use Jay's analogy in a slightly different way, if the difference between the cost of a CL and
a CC site is the price of a pint, you won't find me on the CL.0 -
Just back from 24 nights on CLs in South Wales - average cost a tad over £13 per night.
For us the most important aspect of a CL is the location and we will pay accordingly.
Generally we will consider:
No facility CL £6 - £10 per night - at £10 location/view would have to be exceptional.
EHU CL £10 - £13 per night - at £13 again location would need to be very good.
Full facility (EHU, Shower, Toilet) CL £12 - £15 per night.
Generally between May and August we prefer simple no facility CLs as we have a solar panel etc. Outside that period we tend to look for EHU (unless just for a couple of nights) as the panel struggles to generate enough to keep up with usage.
We only use full facility CLs if the location makes them a better choice than more simple sites since we see no point in paying extra for a shower and toilet since the facilities in our van are perfectly adequate. We dont care about hard standing since
we have a 4 wheel drive car and have never yet got stuck.We will use main CC sites if there are no suitable CLs but would never pay more than about £23 a night and would prefer to pay no more than £20.
Generally we think CLs provide excellent value for money and would like to see more simple sites at the circa £8 a night price point.
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I understand the approach taken by JayEss but I think he/she is overlooking one thing. Yes £20 may well be not too much & less than a night out down the pub, - but you dont do that every night do you? Well I don't anyway.
So paying £20 per night for a 10 night stay will cost a hell of a lot more than £13 per night. You can do quite a bit with that £70 on your holiday!
If I am only having a short weekend stay then like you, I'm not so bothered about the price. But a longer stay? - Thats different.
TF
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I agree TF and my second post made that clearer I hope.
We are a long way off retirement and all our breaks are relatively short. So the impact of a difference in a nightly price is less for me than for most. Hence if a CL is exactly where I want to be I would pay more because it may lead to savings in fuel or
travelling time.I think £20 a night is a bit strong but even so I wouldn't rule the CL out based on price alone. A lot will and only time will tell if it's viable
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The problem with simple sites at £8 per night is that they are never full and the fixed costs remain the same making them not viable, hence they close.
Quite agree Gibbo.
Fantasy or reality? I have just worked out some figures for running a basic CL and by my calculations the very basic cost to an owner would mean an occupancy rate of 219 nights at £8 per night and 350 nights at £5, which I think would be unlikely. This does
not include any labour, rent, business rate or website fees or water rate. This is just to break even and I am sure there are costs that I have not taken into account.Interestingly the biggest increase in costs over the last few years has been insurance, and the cost of disposal of rubbish which has risen considerably.
Surely the CL owner should be able to make some sort of profit, even enough to cover the labour involved? Personally I think they give terrific value for money.
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Costs which may not be apparent to all include a huge hike in home insurance as you have to have business cover and the inability to get normal mortgages as you are classed as a business, Santander turned us down, a quote from the NFU for our house and cl
and shower block tractor mower etc last year was £1200 we found cheaper but still considerable, add to that the CC asked us to remove all barbed wire from the site, therefore we had to renew the fences, plant screening had to be put in to shield from neighbours
view, the small pit at the entrance had to be fenced, the entrance had to be hardcored and I could go on!!0 -
Some very interesting post on this thread, especially the last couple of pages. We love CLs, always have, used them for last thirty years with camper van, caravan and now MH. We are still happy to use very basic CLs in the Summer, the location, peace and
quiet, and views being the most important factors for us. So anything under £10 in this category is great. Once EHU is included, then provided the location is good, and peaceful we are still happy at the £15 level. But a basic CL at that price would have
to be exceptional, as we have found some small private sites with decent shower and loo facilities at the £15 price range.(We have a small MH, just two adults)I am intrigued by the Club asking you to carry out so many tasks gibbo, as we stay on lots of places with barb wire fences and unscreened bin areas, and direct access onto grass. Can quite understand your dilemma regarding pricing though, as you say some
hidden costs.0 -
When I set my CL up the club asked me to completely fence off the CL from the rest of the field, which added £2000 of fencing and gates to the set up costs. They also asked me to plant trees and plants. It has all added to the CL but these are costs
that are not always appreciated.Sarah
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Again, somewhat interesting. It would seem that there is a huge variation in what CLs are asked to do. Not sure how long your CL has been operating HBHF, but we have stayed on some long established (30/40 year old CLs) that don't have such requirements.
In fact one or two are basic fields, well kept and mown, but with just a tap, a cdp point and a bin for waste. I wonder if down the years, the Club's set up advice has changed? I know the older CLs are still inspected, so the Club obviously have no problems
with them. Owners are a mix of farmers and elderly persons utilising big gardens or meadows.0 -
Thanks for that. Seems an unlevel playing field for both potential CLs, existing CLs and visitors to a certain extent. Those differences could make or break the setting up of a CL, which of course impacts on making somewhere a viable proposition for the
owners, and providing a new CL for users. Perhaps gives a bit more insight into why some are closing as well. I can understand the Club giving a bit more guidance/helpful suggestions to owners and those wanting to set up nowadays, but what that entails seems
a tad dependant on the inspectors! Safety standards are paramount, but aesthetics ought to be more in the hands of the owners, as to what they can viably afford, especially for set up early period. Thank you for that insight, much appreciated.0 -
if i was going to pay £20 a night I would just stay on a club site. In mid or low season it's not much difference.
we have stayed on two cls with ehu and toilets . We don't take advantage of ehu like many do these days . The same with toilets & shower Use once then use the van .
some seem to add on for extras now as well. I don't think you should pay more for awnings .
I like the quite of cls in high season . As well as saving on high prices.
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I think new CL’s are asked to do a lot more and it varies from inspector to inspector. Another request for us was a 12m gap between caravans, however we have stayed on a number of older CL’s
where this would be totally impractical.Sarah
We stayed on a new CL a few weeks ago, talking to the owner We were surprised at how much the CC inspector had said they needed to do, all of which must have added quite a lot of additional cost.
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Which means they must charge higher prices to you and me reducing the differential between club sites and CL's.
Good job I don't go in for conspiracy theories.
By the way I am not going to become involved in the club management because I have had quite enough of management during my working life.
We also have a nominated representative who ( I hope) is there to represent the views of all club members.
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All the nominated people are hopefully there to represent us but I expect questions are very limited at the AGM. I think supporting the regional meetings would give some of us the opportunity to put forward our different views. Whether any of us actually
turn up and go to these meetings is a consideration?0 -
Well, what a great debate! And some useful information as well.
Thank you Fysherman for your reasoned and useful reply regarding the fact that THS's can - at some points during the season - compete with CL's on price. I didn't know that they had risen in popularity and could legitimately be perceived as a commercial Threat
to CL's, but it's useful info. I dare say that some CL's may 'feel the pinch' from a local THS and might be advised to adjust their pricing - if they want to compete with them - while the local THS is in operation. Simple demand & supply.
In terms of 'listening to the market’ on price I use a number of sources; CT, visitors to my own site, opinions from other CL owners and the Club’s own Market Research. Clearly there are a number of people on CT that argue strongly for ‘simple sites at less
than £10’. These proponents are very vocal. Others on CT realise that CL’s - whatever their facilities - have a number of overheads (greater overheads than a THS I’d guess). A ‘Thank You’ to oakapple for working out some figures for running a CL and realising
they are over £8/night to break even.Here at Cholsey Grange, our occupancy and repeat business is high so I believe we have our pricing about right. However I accept that we are self-selecting opinions from visitors who are prepared to pay our 'top of the market’ rates for our exceptional location.
We therefore probably don’t meet many visitors who would like to pay circa £10.However, I take all the above with a large grain of salt, as the samples of these audiences are biased.
As someone who has been in the Market Research industry most of my life, I base the majority of my opinion on the exceptionally well researched studies that the Caravan Club does using professional market research agencies and following industry-standard methodologies.
What their research concludes is that “CL’s are very highly rated for value for money by those using them. Nearly 60% of these rated them 9 out of 10 or 10 out of 10”To try and address the issue of CL’s leaving the network, either because can’t make it pay, or because they want to make more money than their 5-van limit allows, I’m working actively to try and support the Club Management team with ideas that will provide
CL owners with guidance on a wide range of issues such as; reducing the costs of running a CL (could the club help with insurance or buying electricity?) or on the other hand maximising the potential revenue by increasing occupancy through better marketing,
special price offers, or installing low-cost but high value facilities such as WiFi. etc. Of course those are not the sole reason CL’s leave, some might not have had their certificate renewed due to breaking the 5 Van limit or they simply retire or sell their
property and the new owners don’t take the CL forwards.To date, the Club has not assisted CL’s with much practical advice (beyond the basics regarding certification) but I feel that if the network is to be maintained or expanded, it might need to invest more effort into the CL network. After all, the CL network
is the reason 22% of members join the club. If a similar proportion of the Membership Fee was spent on supporting the CL network, I think it would be thriving rather than declining.
It would also appear that the Club Inspectors don’t necessarily sing from the same hmyn sheet in terms of requirements for access, fencing, spacing etc.etc. Again, this is something I’d like to work with the Club to address.Fysherman - I’m sorry I didn’t reply earlier, but the CL itself or the farm it’s on doesn’t provide a sufficient income so, like most CL owners, I have to have a ‘day job. Hence my delay in responding to this debate! As I have said a number of times, do
visit Cholsey Grange so that we can continue in more convivial surroundings, or come to the AGM in a few weeks.VAT - As our farm is VAT registered, my accountant has reliably informed me that we have to charge VAT within our pricing for the CL. I’m not going to argue with my accountant (or HMRC) on that point! For visitors who request one, we provide a VAT receipt.
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Thank you for your considered reply, it's much appreciated.
I hope you will consider the point that average prices are rising to be an issue and it would be helpful if the club could embark upon a drive to encourage new CL owners to try (at least initially)operating a CL without incurring infrastructure charges beyond those which are needed to comply with regulations. It is recognised that if attached to a farm and run through the farm books, VAT is unavoidable but of course not all are like that.
Again, thanks for your reply, I will give thought to to the points you have raised.
regards from the Fysh.
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