New CL: fantasy price
Comments
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Tinwheeler we have a CL open all year and the CL DD is £248 per month which includes information hut with laundry facilities and 16amp hook ups, the shower block which has its own metered supply is £40 per month, the greatest usuage in one day on the CL
alone in winter was 220KW it is always far in excess of our own usage in the house. Hope this helps...And your costs do not show the cost of testing all the site equipment
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We have recently returned from a trip and was chatting to a CL owner and he told me that the electrician who checks his hook-up points told him that a caravan uses an average of £3 a day electricity. That would equate to £90 for a month, I dont use anywhere
near that at home and we have all the usual gadgets on, TV, Internet, Laptop, not to mention the usual white goods. He is increasing his pricing by £3 a night on the strength of that.Surely the CL owner was already charging something for the electricity being used on the pitch in the price per night. So he was now going to charge an extra £3 over and above that amount, thus making a profit on the cost of the electricity, which a TW said,
is illegal.0 -
It's only illegal to exceed the cost price if the CL is selling metered electricity by the unit. If the charge is described as being for use of the EHU point, for instance, there is no restriction.
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It's only illegal to exceed the cost price if the CL is selling metered electricity by the unit. If the charge is described as being for use of the EHU point, for instance, there is no restriction.
Which is why CC generally choose to charge an inclusive fee whether or not you want EHU; and C&CC (who offer both options) are not interested in metering!
My own calculations suggest that about £1/night is the approximate useage in summer, and £4 (upwards) in mid-winter.
I have (inspired by Kjell) installed a meter in my 'van to gather some actual data ......but it's likely to take a long time as we prefer basic sites anyway, and only take EHU if staying somewhere where it is included by default in the fee.
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I haven't kept up with this thread but the by the heading the gist is Peculiar Prices.
I've just found a cl that charges according to the length of the van. up to 6m £13, 7m £14 and over that £15. How do they explain the reason for that.
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Could it be the increased heating requirement (leading to increase in electricity usage) depending on size harry....
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Gibbo, thanks for your figures but my point is that £3 per day consumption per EHU is an overestimation by the electrician referred to earlier.
In 2013 Npowr reckoned that the standard tarrif worked out at 19.87 pence per Kw Hour. With WHU most, if not all caravaners will be using electricity for heating. So if we say over 20p per KW hour I can well believe that in coldest 5 months of the year
it would amount to around £5 or even more a day. Obviously there are less folk using sites at that time of the year. Given the cost of providing EHU I do not see £3 a night charge as anything but reasonable.0 -
The issue of electricity usage by members on CL's was covered extensively in a former post. Unfortunately the unsophisticated 'Search' function of CT doesn't allow me to find the thread. Suffice to say that I have it on good authority that the Club would
have installed meters on it's own sites - but retro-fitting them would be a massive investment. For now it just swallows the cost of electricity, however it's a major cost in the running of club sites.For CL owners, I think it's sensible for any new owner to consider a metered system. Whether they then choose to charge per kWh @ cost or include a certain amount of elecgtric per night in the Pitch Fee is up to them. We include 10 kWh per night in our
fee and charge 15p/kWh thereafter which is the cost price including VAT.Through the summer months this amount is rarely exceeded, however in the early Spring & Autumn some visitors might be charged a little extra on departure to cover the costs. We feel that this is a fair and reasonable system and the vast majority of our
visitors agree.In fact only yesterday a visitor said 'I expect to be using a fair bit of electric as I'll be having a fan heater on in my awning when my grand-children (very young) come to visit & I'm happy to pay'..
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That seems reasonable CG.
Potential new CL owners concerned about return on investment with only 5 vans allowed might also consider not putting in EHU at all. At least at first.
Many new Caravans are now being fitted with Solar panels and as their cost continues to fall as a retrospective purchase, many customer Caravans do not need electricity at all. If the site is not a 12 month operation then a very real case can be made for no EHU.
There is (at least) one enterprising CL owner that has found it cost effective to loan a freestanding panel rather than install electricity.
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That seems reasonable CG.
Potential new CL owners concerned about return on investment with only 5 vans allowed might also consider not putting in EHU at all. At least at first.
Many new Caravans are now being fitted with Solar panels and as their cost continues to fall as a retrospective purchase, many customer Caravans do not need electricity at all. If the site is not a 12 month operation then a very real case can be made for no EHU.
There is (at least) one enterprising CL owner that has found it cost effective to loan a freestanding panel rather than install electricity.
I certainly agree that many of us can readily cope without a EHU, by using through the main season a decent sized solar panel.[Circa 80 >100 Watts]. And I believe with the 5 van limit, for those sites in other than “honey-pot” locations itself ensuring a high occupancy, there really is not a sound financial case for EHU.
There is a counter argument that the lack of EHUs inhibits the seasons length, but this is countered again by the then massive increase in power consumed and the inability to recover this cost without high pitch charges or costly metering. I think that one goes self defeating, in that in reality high winter occupancy is rarely obtainable even with an EHU, plus more is also needed like hardstandings for winter use to be viable anyway.
Quite a lot of CL/CS owners say they are forever asked for EHUs, which tends to suggest a lot of us are only prepared to use sites with it. That in itself I doubt assures that providing EHUs becomes viable, just the occupancy if not the returns are up.
What is needed is the membership to be more aware and assured that going solar is actually viable and not what they assume it has to mean. The CC could do its membership and many 5 van sites, though probably not itself, a favour with a well presented magazine feature on going solar, rather than the briefest of article squeezed in between adverts.
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That seems reasonable CG.
Potential new CL owners concerned about return on investment with only 5 vans allowed might also consider not putting in EHU at all. At least at first.
Many new Caravans are now being fitted with Solar panels and as their cost continues to fall as a retrospective purchase, many customer Caravans do not need electricity at all. If the site is not a 12 month operation then a very real case can be made for
no EHU.There is (at least) one enterprising CL owner that has found it cost effective to loan a freestanding panel rather than install electricity.
I certainly agree that many of us can readily cope without a EHU, by using through the main season a decent sized solar panel.[Circa 80 >100 Watts]. And I believe with the 5 van limit, for those sites in other than “honey-pot” locations itself ensuring a
high occupancy, there really is not a sound financial case for EHU.There is a counter argument that the lack of EHUs inhibits the seasons length, but this is countered again by the then massive increase in power consumed and the inability to recover this cost without high pitch charges or costly metering. I think that one
goes self defeating, in that in reality high winter occupancy is rarely obtainable even with an EHU, plus more is also needed like hardstandings for winter use to be viable anyway.Quite a lot of CL/CS owners say they are forever asked for EHUs, which tends to suggest a lot of us are only prepared to use sites with it. That in itself I doubt assures that providing EHUs becomes viable, just the occupancy if not the returns are up.
What is needed is the membership to be more aware and assured that going solar is actually viable and not what they assume it has to mean. The CC could do its membership and many 5 van sites, though probably not itself, a favour with a well presented magazine
feature on going solar, rather than the briefest of article squeezed in between adverts.Write your comments here...You have to weigh up the cost of having a solar panel fitted plus extra gas used compared to savings on sites without EHU.
A simple calculation of buying a SP at say £500 inc fitting etc. if a site charged £3 a nitght fo EHU thats 166 nights (4 years @40 nights per year) plus you add the extra cost of gas which for a fridge can mount up let alone heating so lets add say another
£120 for gas (4 or 5 calor) each year thats another £480 over the 4 years which equates to £2,90 per night (166 nights) it sort of becomes expensive not to have EHU for some.I know the above would not match everyones actual use or costs but its a stick in the sand.
Also refillable gas can be fitted lowering costs but its not suitable for everyone.
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The CC do seem to have lost members uninterested in Hook ups to the other club that have tapped into this market with Temp holiday sites.
Perhaps the CC have missed the boat already.
Write your comments here...Opposite for us we have just given up the other club due to the poor booking process, sites not up to the same standard, rude staff at HO and deposits. We are not bothered if we ahve EHU or not and do not make a choice of where
to stay basded on that alone its location etc. for us.0 -
A lot of people have had enough of daft club site prices on both clubs sites and are moving to alternatves. Traditional CL's have met that need in the past but many are now expensive mini club sites
I honestly think the CC should look at which way the market is going. Of course they won't if they keep selling pitches
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A lot of people have had enough of daft club site prices on both clubs sites and are moving to alternatves. Traditional CL's have met that need in the past but many are now expensive mini club sites
I honestly think the CC should look at which way the market is going. Of course they won't if they keep selling pitches
They also to an extent face a generation thing, unless those following us start buying caravans or motorhomes. One wonders if these younger people will have the where- with-all to actually do so in the numbers presently chasing pitches?
Then there is the inevitable reduction in domestic vehicle weight that for other than the well heeled younger people that can run heavier vehicles, is going to put caravanning as we know it at some risk.
If it was an option I would not invest in this business.
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The issue of electricity usage by members on CL's was covered extensively in a former post. Unfortunately the unsophisticated 'Search' function of CT doesn't allow me to find the thread. Suffice to say that I have it on good authority that the Club would
have installed meters on it's own sites - but retro-fitting them would be a massive investment. For now it just swallows the cost of electricity, however it's a major cost in the running of club sites.For CL owners, I think it's sensible for any new owner to consider a metered system. Whether they then choose to charge per kWh @ cost or include a certain amount of elecgtric per night in the Pitch Fee is up to them. We include 10 kWh per night in our
fee and charge 15p/kWh thereafter which is the cost price including VAT.Through the summer months this amount is rarely exceeded, however in the early Spring & Autumn some visitors might be charged a little extra on departure to cover the costs. We feel that this is a fair and reasonable system and the vast majority of our
visitors agree.In fact only yesterday a visitor said 'I expect to be using a fair bit of electric as I'll be having a fan heater on in my awning when my grand-children (very young) come to visit & I'm happy to pay'..
No doubt the pros and cons of this will have been discussed before. The issue I can see is that there is heavy demand in winter but not Spring or Summer so the cost must even itself out over the seasons and don't forget many clubss sites and cl's don't even
open in the winter months so EHU charges for them must be quite lucrative after intital costs.I do agree with your "Unsophisticated Search" facility. It never works for me
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Harry, you are quite correct that not all CL's are open all year.
A quick check shows that 63% of CL's are open all year and that only 28% of CL's are both open all year, offer EHU and Hardstanding.
Any club site without EHU is hardly ever booked (ask the club) and any CL owner wo has converted over (like we did) from non-EHU to EHU will see the viability of their site improve dramatically. Whether you like it or not, CL's without EHU are a rarity
(less than 20%).However, as metered EHU can only be charged at cost price, I doubt any CL owner earns a 'lucrative' amount (which implies we are charging over the odds) from supplying EHU.
Aside from the initial costs of installing EHU (in my case near to £5,000 - hence a long pay-back) there is the annual electrical certification to arrange & pay for and ongoing maintenance. You'd be surprised how often EHU meters get damaged. A fellow
CL owner recently had one of his ripped out of the ground by a departing guest who was still plugged in when he drove off!0 -
My post didn't make mention of any site without EHU so not sure in what context you mentioned that.
Maybe my choice of the word "lucrative" was the wrong choice and I'm sorry if have read it the wrong way. In no way was I implying anyone was charging over the odds. What I meant to say was that those sites that don't open in winter will not have the same amperage use as those that do in summer. Things like fridges, water pumps, tv's etc do not use anywhere near the amount of electricity that you stated in your earlier post (10kwh per day) so with that they can't be out of pocket on costs alone surely. Likewise the club too.
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I too have now looked at what the electricity used in summer might be and I cannot get anywhere neat 10kW per day.
Perhaps CG could argue at the council meetings for a publicity drive for basic CL'S and how little the site might cost to set up before the club loses too many more members to the other club and it's THS network . I have been a member of both club's on and off since the early 1980's and I am concerned about the drop in CL numbers and frankly what people are saying on sites.
£5K for ehu if typical is a lot to recover from 5 customers maximum and probably will put off prospective CL owners.
CG, may I ask, are you a CL owners spokesman or a members who use CLs spokesman.?
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£5K for ehu if typical is a lot to recover from 5 customers maximum and probably will put off prospective CL owners.
In considering that EHU provision price there will be many domestic property based 5 van sites that have not the electrical power supply to the property to both support themselves and 5 pitches.
So there the local electricity supplier will need to bring the required power to the property; if that is anything further than tapping into an on property supply, the cost are horrendous. None of those where it is off property will be looking at "just" £5k for that level of power supply together with the EHU points.
Been through this debate with a new higher power provision to neighbouring property, and there the overhead cables are on site boundary.
Hence, my assertion that for so many CLs providing CC site levels of EHUs for just a 5 van site is commercially not on.
If this as stated means clients will not use CLs then the only option is as I see so frequently, is to close completely.
If the need for EHUs is a must for 5 van sites then the numbers are inevitably going to go down, or pricing will be high or as here "fantasy".
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We have had our CL now for some 18 years and over that time the elecrticiy usage has gone up year on year, I only have to look at my own van today and see what I expect to use that needs charging let alown that needed for cooking , hot water and heating.
So what of the future, I had a breif encounter this summer that got me thinking, we had on site a Crossover car , the owner wanted to charge its battry over night, and was willing to pay extra for it, we agreed a price, and all went well, but I forsee this
could soon be the norm, how can we as a CL owner recover the costs involved ? I look forward to your replies.0 -
If the trend for using more electricity continues, and I think it will, then I would be happier to see
new CLs installing meters to be honest. We have an old van with nothing like the gadgets you find in new vans nowadays, and we are frugal users of electric anyway, even when touring in Winter. I realise that this is rather a "what suits us"
approach, but I don't want to be priced off CLs. Would accommodate those who like to use more, perhaps want to recharge an electric car, as well as those like us. For the established CLs, then offer a dual price, with electric or without, that way we can still
visit but use solar panels and gas as we need.0 -
If the trend for using more electricity continues, and I think it will, then I would be happier to see
new CLs installing meters to be honest. We have an old van with nothing like the gadgets you find in new vans nowadays, and we are frugal users of electric anyway, even when touring in Winter. I realise that this is rather a "what suits us"
approach, but I don't want to be priced off CLs. Would accommodate those who like to use more, perhaps want to recharge an electric car, as well as those like us. For the established CLs, then offer a dual price, with electric or without, that way we can still
visit but use solar panels and gas as we need.Write your comments here...TDA I to see this as the way forward, but feel it needs a few more years before it will be excepted.
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I think the next 20 years will be rather interesting all round regarding touring. Likely to be fewer people retiring early, certainly less with much in their pension pots, so be interesting to see what trends develop. Then there are the motoring implications,
trend towards smaller lighter cars. Boom time at the moment for caravan and Motorhomes, but how long will it last, before there is a back to basics trend. All conjecture of course.
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I agree with TDA that the option of not taking an EHU would be great for those of us who have invested in solar and Safefill etc. We found this option available on many sites in Southern Ireland. However for CLs having invested in installing EHUs I suspect
they will want to charge whether or not you want electricity in order to recoup the cost of installing electricity.0 -
I agree with TDA that the option of not taking an EHU would be great for those of us who have invested in solar and Safefill etc. We found this option available on many sites in Southern Ireland. However for CLs having invested in installing EHUs I suspect
they will want to charge whether or not you want electricity in order to recoup the cost of installing electricity.Write your comments here...We have no problem with those who do not want EHU we drop the fees by £2 per night.
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