Club EV charging costs
Hi all,
as a PHEV and EV driver, I am really please to see the introduction of a cost structure and policy for PHEV and EV charging on site, but I am somewhat confused by the cost structure.
While I understand the desire to ensure that full battery EVs do not "overuse" the service, the 4x cost seems somewhat odd given the constraint that any EV only be charged using the caravan supply at 2.3Kw (10amp).
In my experience charging my PHEV, realistically a charger has to be turned down to 8A or 6A in order to share the power available with other caravan systems (heating, kettle, microwave, cooker). This means that for a relatively small PHEV battery (11Kwh) a full charge takes 8 hours. Given there are only 24 hours in the day this would give a maximum realistic charge of 33Kwh, about the same as the largest battery quoted in the policy in a PHEV vehicle.
If charging from a dedicated 16A socket on a power bollard were allowed, this would potentially increase the rate and hence value of the electricity consumed, making the difference in price for BEV and PHEV understandable. It would also make the use of a BEV as a tow vehicle far more viable, not requiring the member to have to find a charging location for the vehicle in what may be a remote location.
I would love to know other members thoughts on the topic :-)
Tobes
Comments
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I would think the charge via your caravan socket would be expected to be used overnight with both type of vehicle, the "interesting part that i have noted ,is how will the add charge be implemented/and or policed as it is down to the honest members to advse the site office staff when they will be charging their vehicle.
I can remember n EHU was an add charge and wardens we know (when they were working at the time most retired now) were always noting members connected to the bollard although they "did not need the electric hook up" when booking in
Even now some will run another lead to a "spare?" hookup if needing extra power,site staff will advise
ps i shall wait for comments from other posters who will try to belittle what i have said
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I agree the expectation is that all EVs will be charged via the caravan and not direct from the bollard. And that’s the basis of my concern. When charging through the van you can only add so much energy in a given time. I.e. the amount of electricity used is constrained not by the EV but by time and the connection (via the van). I have no problem paying for the electricity, but the different price for PHEV and BEV makes no sense given the constraint for charging.
What I would really like to see is an implementation that measures how much electricity is used and charges on that basis. Given that EVs are inevitable, the club really needs to get to grips with the offer sooner rather than later.0 -
There are a few points to consider here.
EVs are to be charged via caravans to gain the safety benefit of the trip devices installed in vans.
The electricity supply to bollards is inadequate for everyone to potentially use 16A in their vans and another 16A charging their cars. Indeed, site supplies are already stretched and frequently overloaded during times of high demand and we are asked to minimise usage - and that's without many people charging EVs.
Supply to the site cannot be increased on a whim and is probably already 3 phase on bigger sites.
Metering/monitoring of electricity usage is a very complex issue with legal connotations and an installation cost which would be reflected somewhere in the fees charged.
This whole issue is one that is being looked at by the club with a few options in mind.
However, I am just another club member and have no inside knowledge and you are unlikely to uncover technical facts and details of future plans on this forum. I would suggest you put your thoughts directly to the club who might welcome them.
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We tow with a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV on site we charge up via the caravan external socket, the PHEV draws 10 amp for approximately 4 1/2 hours the last hours is slowly drops to zero.
If we need to boil a kettle we have to switch the PHEV charger off. We can still some smaller item like the Alde heating on 1 kW or our Reomska 600 watt cooker, not both. With the PHEV charging and the heating on according to the Swift onboard screen we are under the 16 amps.
We set are PHEV charger to charge after midnight when electric consumption in low on site.
The average PHEV like our requires approximately 10 kWh for a full charge (20 pence a kW, which = £2.00) In theory with some care an EV can easily consume over 40 kWh over a 24 period ( 20 pence a kW =£8.00)
We don't expect the caravan club or other member to subsidise the charging up our PHEV. As regards full EV it is more cost effective and convenient to use the fast charging points some like Tesco are free
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I certainly dont expect the club to subsidise charging - that is on me, but it would be good to have a solution where the large battery BEV user is not over paying for the same amount of electricity used by a small battery BEV or PHEV user, when it is almost impossible to use that amount of power.
A different solution might be, charge via the van - pay £2 per day flat rate (no discrimination for EV type).
Or - if there is one available - charge from a spare bollard using a 16A to 3 pin connector or using a native 16A charger unit - charge £8 or £10 a day. Possibly an option of £5 or £8 over night if parked on a late-arrivals pitch between certain hours.
Don't miss-understand me - I really like that the CMCC have a policy and are thinking about this, but I think the policy needs to evolve as the requirements evolve. Charging a Polestar 2 (the BEV I will be towing with) from 0 - 100% at 6A will take 57 hours 10% - 80 would take 40 hours with a cost of £10 at 20p per kwh .
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The club are already installing EV hook up bollards on sites that are being refurbished (covid has delayed much of that) if the power supply is enough
gs, In colder periods now, members on many sites are being asked to restrict the use of the power that is used to conserve power when some "need?" not only the LV heating on High but then also heat the Sky by having ,as you may have seen, radiant heaters in their empty awnings ,
I would think what the club have introduced is a "test the water" before huge investment on metered eletric which of course would need somehow to be recovered
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The Club seem more interested in introducing glamping pods and teh like than catering for EV & PHEV owners at the moment.
They should realise that most tow car owners will be considering a PHEV the next time they change their car and will want to recharge it when they arrive at the caravan site after each journey. The policy introduced seems to be a bit "hit and miss" and I'm not convinced that the electricity supply will cope.
Some serious investment needed I think as soon as possible.
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I would think as with many places in the UK the problem with power supplies ,or lack of , is going to be the big problem ,for many years to come, not just camp sites
Maybe until then any vehicle charging will need to be overnight when power usage is lower
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In order to support several EHV/BVs charging up then surely each club site would need to:-
a) up the fuse rating of the sites' 3 phase supply and
b) charge those requiring such a service via a metered supply (coin or card fed.)
After all the club does not supply petrol/diesel for the rest of us free of charge so why should we be disadvantaged ?
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Hi redface, as per the original post, the club have a policy on charging PHEV/BEV, it's not free. Today they have a simple policy that differentiates users by vehicle type (PHEV or BEV). The driver pays for charge based on the type of vehicle.
Personally, I would love to see metered use of electricity not just for charging but for all use while on pitch, and an open transparent system that showed the costs (pkWh) and total, but clearly that is a long way away. One could argue that those who keep electricity usage to a minimum (just lights, fridge, heating and cooking) are paying for those who heat the awning, run extra electric grills, have a big TV etc. Running a 1Kw heater over night is about the same as charging a car on its lowest setting, and will add 30-40 miles from 8pm to 8am. Having metered use on pitch could bring the cost of the pitch down, and incentivise more economical use of the sites resource.
Having dedicated (paid for) EV charging points, perhaps a few to start with, near the entrance of a site would be a good way to encourage charging at appropriate locations.
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I totally understand were you are coming from, I am sure some of the EV supplies would be interested and covering the cost in installing their EV charging points on the CMC sites, but again this will have to be monitored from users hogging the EV charging point, could you imagine a visitor parks up and plug in their EV hogging the site all day, and a club member wants to charge their EV or a PHEV plugged in taking a slow charge whist EV are waiting?
The only problem I see in metering pitches, the older caravans are less energy efficient, which would hurt families or members on a limit budget. In the summer the caravans electricity consumption would be low, in the colder weather the energy would be higher, I an sure the CMC have balance out their cost for supply and seasonal demand.
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JVB wrote "Maybe until then any vehicle charging will need to be overnight when power usage is lower"
What, with all those people chewing the fat until the small hours in their awning with a 3 Kw electric fire going?
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The way I see it is one of the big problems of providing dedicated EV charging points on sites is the lack of standardisation. I understand there are as many as 30 different charging systems. The Club has put one in on the Brighton site but I have no idea of the type of plug in or how its use is charged for?
peedee
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Hi Peedee, this is a widely misunderstood myth.
There are two current standards for charging in the UK - CCS for rapid (very high power charging) and Type 2 for slow and fast (home or destination) type charging. There is a legacy standard most new rapid chargers are still equipped with, but that is a total of 3 socket types. All new cars in the UK will use CCS and type 2.
There are 30 + charging providers in the UK, but you can think of the providers as Shell, BP, Esso etc, and the systems as petrol or diesel (or high octane Petrol or high octane diesel). All the providers use the same pump type, you just have to pick the right one for your car.
In addition all new rapid public chargers must be able to use contactless payment, simplifying the charging process, and will often incorporate punitive overstay charges.
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Hi Oscarmax,
These are good points to think about, but very simple issues to overcome. For example - your pitch tag (or gate access tag for those sites that have electronic gates) could easily also be an RFID tag to enable the charger. Or you could pick one up from the wardens at checkin. When you want to charge, you tap in with the card to a) start the charge and b) attached the charge to your "account". No tag - no charge. Depending on the type of charger (destination / overnight or Rapid / short stay) you could easily also include overstay charges. All EV drivers are well versed in these models and will be able to make the most of the facility without penalty.
In terms of "energy efficiency", I am sure that newer caravans have more insulation and perhaps slightly more controllable (efficient) heating, but for anyone who is using the caravan in a "normal" way will see bills that are very similar. Sure summer will be cheaper and winter more expensive - but thats true everywhere right? And as for hurting those on a limited budget, by reducing the cost of the pitch to exclude electricity, and then charging for what is used the choice on how to spend is given back to the individual.
The club could for example offer a standard amount of electricity per day - say up to 5 or 10kWh, and beyond that usage you pay at 20p per kWh consumed. That would give the awning heaters or car-chargers what they want or need, but without consuming the Clubs supply at no charge, and making the charging structure fairer for all?
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I totally understand were you are coming from, as regard metering pitches the installation cost and maintenance , the CMC would require a licence to resell electric and not forgetting collection of the fee's.
At present the CMC business model at peak periods higher prices and lower price in the off season to encourage booking when the demand is lower, why complicate thing to accommodate PHEV/EV
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That's also an excellent point (the licensing and resale) though they would not be a DNO, just a service provider. I think the rational needs to be valid though. If the clubs intention is to reduce electricity costs by charging for EV charging, they are missing out on not charging for awning heaters. If they want to reduce electricity usage for fear of overloading the sites supply, then looking at options for reducing pitch load seems sensible. If they want to encourage greener behaviours, the discouraging awning heaters might be sensible. And the key point is, EVs are coming in greater numbers to the public and to the club, so accommodating them is necessary and inevitable.
Their current policy is a good start, and shows that the club are thinking about it, but it needs work. The discussion on how how it might progress is interesting and important.
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We used to go to a fully serviced Cl up until a couple of years ago, they intended to install metered pitches, the first 10 kWh included in the site fee then chargeable over the 10 kWh. They were having problems with awning heaters air conditioning even when unoccupied, that we could understand.
In response they put up a sign no charging of electric vehicles which we full understand, however to charge up your electric bike or mobility scooter £6.00 ?
We informed them we have 2 80 watt solar panels on the roof so don't use the caravans charger, and charge up the mobility scooter using our invertor ? still £6.00.
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Personally I think metering on sites will be the only way to conserve energy and reduce overheads. It doesn't really matter whether it is someone charging an EV or running an array of electrical goods in a van, consumption is the key issue and needs to be brought under control.
At present increased site fees are the only way of controlling energy costs.
Hybrid tow vehicles will become more popular and demand will go up as a consequence. At present club sites are not equipped for the extra demand.
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Not many places are equipped for what HMG hope may be the future ?
It will not be sites that will need upgrading but also the power supply to the sites as we noted as did the park and cafes here last week ,when three very large ICE generators were needed while the overloaded(according to national power)was again patched up
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Yeah £6 to Charge an E-bike or mobility scooter is nuts. You can charge a PHEV for £2 and get 30 miles out of it. That’s simply a miss match in understanding vs reality. But education is the key.
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I think a lot of places are well equipped to deal with the future, club sites more than others. The challenge is how to effectively charge for it (at a club site) or anywhere else. What is needed is an holistic policy that encompasses all energy usage , encourages economical use and does not penalise some users over others. A blanket charging approach would definitely do this, but is perhaps expensive to implement .
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"I think a lot of places are well equipped to deal with the future, club sites more than others."
I'm not so sure. The UK does not have infinite capacity for generating power and club sites in rural areas are likely to be less equipped to cope, not more.
The program of building more power stations is evidence of the UK's less than adequate generating ability while the frequent overload to club site systems demonstrates they can barely cope now.
The fee charging issue is rather academic until the supply is there to meet anticipated demand.
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Of course it will depend on the CLs cost, but not to that extent. E-Bikes have batteries around 500 - 800 Wh. Really big mobility scooters about the same (12v 55Ah = 660Wh). Even if you are paying an extortionate rate for electricity (50p/kWh) then its about 30p. (For reference I pay 13p/kWh in the day at home, making filling an e-bike battery 7.8pence. For £6 at 13p/kWh I could drive my electric car 150 miles.)
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