Interesting Petition Part 2
Comments
-
There have been may petitions along these lines. They are usually mentioned on various motorhome forums. They all fail.
The problem is that the people who create the petitions demand that others do the work for them.
OH, who has had success in project funding for the community, suggested a way forward on one forum; even offered to help - not with the actual project, but providing sources. No-one took her up on her offer.
She suggested that people keen to establish Aires should carry out research through surveys conducted among local business people / residents / motorhome users in a variety of locations where aires / stopovers are already established - especially those in the UK. Then, having "proved" a need, and highlighted success, approach some councils / sympathetic councillors / chambers of commerce / town regeneration officers and present a well costed business plan. If one or two councils (in addition to the ones who allow for overnighting) could be persuaded to do a trial run then there might be a way forward. It's no use making demands without having first presented a case. And the 'splatter approach' will not work either.
But it's a lot of work and no-one seemed keen to do it, judging by the lack of response to her suggestions. Until someone does, petitions will get no-where - apart from raising the issue.
2 -
I think that is the conclusion we have come to in this debate but getting the C&MC, C&CC & other similar organisations to lobby for this kind of facility. It would be hard work to lobby every LA, national organisation (NT, EH etc) as an individual but a club with an interest for its members may have more joy. There are certainly these types of sites out there especially in Scotland to use as a benchmark.
0 -
The 6m rule comes from the Model Scheme drawn up and published by the Secretary of State under the 1960 Act.
It does allow for part of the space to be used for an awning.
As it is a model it is not an absolute requirement of the Act, so can be varied by agreement with Natural England, which administers the Act on behalf of DeFRA.
The overriding consideration which NE uses is, quite rightly, safety.
0 -
not sure what you are saying but I think not as it is stated that there needs to be 6m between adjacent walls of either a MH or van on a club site and hence the white pegs and where/how to pitch and why we have awning and non awning pitches, often they were/are they same size but the 3m separation could not be maintained so these pitches became non awning,
0 -
I realise that. I was just commenting on the post which provided a link to other petitions and suggesting a reason as to their lack of success.
However, I still think that to send a petition to a Club expecting them to act, with no real research to back up a request is not likely to be met with an enthusiastic response.
I'd love to see a network of Aires here. How that could be achieved without some well researched facts to present to interested parties is hard to see.
I am of the mind that the Club does not cater for motorhoming in the way we can experience it elsewhere. There are claims that we are all "equal". Perhaps. But only if motorhomers "camp" as caravanners do??? I don't think the name change signifies much. As such, we caravan here; motorhome in Europe.
3 -
Current interpretation seem to be that does not allow that space to be filled by an awning as that could be an inhabited area.
Not sure what you are saying OcSid. Members eat sleep and cook in awnings which are only 3m from the next outfit. A motorhome can be moved very quickly if necessary, A caravan and awning cann' t. It seems to me if it is in fact mandatory to have 6m spacing between over night motorhomes the rules need re-examining.,
peedee
0 -
Oscid is incorrect about the space between caravans (and motor-caravans) as is done on club sites awnings do go in that space
The rules have been set out and validated or checked by the fire services taking into a account the fire loading of awnings, cars, (Motor)caravans, it's about stopping the fire spreading. Motorhomes could be moved quickly but only if there is someone there to drive it otherwise it's as hard or perhaps harder to than a caravan.
Are you talking about these proposed stop over areas or club sites?
0 -
Morris Traveller, I think one of the phrases you use is very telling (and I am not criticising you in any way for using it) "does not cater for Motorhomes in the way we can experience it elsewhere".
I don't disagree that a better form of overnight park up, mainly for transitory purposes wouldn't be a godsend. Down I feel in the main to LA's who could provide a few spaces in existing car parks, with or without a water tap or waste disposal. Maybe both Clubs could consider a couple of parking spaces outside of Site barriers as well. National Parks, National Trust and other similar bodies are another potential source.
However........ This island of ours is tiny compared with Europe. Many stopover sites are just that, somewhere to pitch up before heading off on a very long journey. Aires as I understand them aren't meant to be Sites, you aren't supposed to roll out your canopy, put chairs outside, although clearly some of the lovely locations are used in this way. Which brings me to something this island of ours has in abundance.....tiny little stopovers in gorgeous locations where everyone who tours, in whatever outfit is welcome! Ok, some you can only access by paying a fee, but in the main, that means they are inspected, adhere to certain standards, usually very secure and welcoming and give those providing such a reasonable reward for their efforts. I know through talking to European visitors that many love these sites, return year after year, just as many U.K. Visitors do in Europe. I have no idea if Europe provides a similar network, suitable for all kinds of touring outfits, but it would be lovely for this potential user to know that it does.
I think the debate centres around wanting cheap/free overnight pull ins, possibly more in urban locations for overnight stays, or along the main routes. The other side of the debate is more than adequately covered by this country's CL, CS, small private sites, CCC Listed sites and Britstop type coverage. Thousands of visitors, both U.K. residents and from overseas use this existing network already. It offers a wide range of locations, prices and services that embrace all types of touring outfits. Just my thoughts, we use both a MH and a caravan, and have broken our journeys overnight in all kinds of places down the years. Some sadly are no longer safe anymore, so nowadays we opt for a nice, cheap stopover on a little site enroute, in either van or MH.
2 -
Thank you Graham, the question therefore becomes what is a safe distance between motorhomes to overnight. It would appear if it is quite accepable for members to cook, eat and sleep in an awning 3m from the next outfit, it should be acceptable for motorhomes to pitch 3m apart. I would be quite happy with 3m.
peedee
0 -
"But only if motorhomers "camp" as caravanners do???"
MorrisT, the above quote from your post is the bit that puzzles me most. The only difference I’ve found is that with a caravan we went straight to the site arriving early PM and then maybe went out with the car. With the MH we do whatever we want to do en route to the site and arrive later. With the caravan we generally stayed 3 or 4 nights but with the MH only 1 or 2. We still use sites (all types) and still use them in the same way.
Please can you explain what it is that caravanners do that MH-ers don’t.
1 -
but if a LA (or club with LA approval) were to run such a facility wouldn't it have to adhere to the 6m rule? If the LA makes others do the same?
0 -
Just don't travel here in the same way as we do elsewhere. No more than that. Just personal experience.
0 -
Surely travelling is travelling?
Sorry to labour the point but you said -
"I am of the mind that the Club does not cater for motorhoming in the way we can experience it elsewhere. There are claims that we are all "equal". Perhaps. But only if motorhomers "camp" as caravanners do??? I don't think the name change signifies much. As such, we caravan here; motorhome in Europe."
You were referring to the club in the comment "But only if motorhomers "camp" as caravanners do???". I’m still struggling to see the difference in the way we camp. Surely both pull onto a site, use whatever facilities are needed, eat, sleep and move on?🤔 Enlighten me, please.
3 -
Agreed and that seemed to be a point Rowena raised as well.
0 -
Seems to me it would depend on the L.A. and you wouldn't know without asking for planning permission and then I suspect it would depend on what the local fire brigade required. If the original model was drawn up in 1960 it should now at least be re-examined to take into account the increased use of motorhomes.
peedee
0 -
In the MMM guide to overnight stops, some do stipulate leaving a 6metre gap. Others you just park up, hope you have enough space to open your hab door. And pray next door doesn't snore or worse! Some free, most for a charge.
This country doesn't have a culture any more of providing anything of public or community value. Everything, (including taking a pee) is either at a cost, with private companies running it to benefit a few shareholders, or it is being closed down, such as LA provided public conveniences. LA's are cut to the bone, it will be a huge mindset leap to look at providing anything with a long term value, it needs to reap almost instant payback.
2 -
At the end of the day what is deemed to be safe in any given location is the distance which the LA issuing the licence, or the club issuing the certificate, specifies having regard to all of the circumstances. In some cases (the club's response refers) some LAs have allowed smaller separation distances in particular cases (I'm pretty sure the "aire" at New Dover Road, Canterbury, has smaller distances). I don't know how easy it would be though, in the case of a problem (a fire spreading for instance), for a LA to defend their decision.
In the past, it was the case that separation distances at some rallies (perhaps not all clubs) were less than 6m because of the number of attendees accommodated in the space available. A couple of years ago Natural England cracked down on that and all clubs now have to adhere to the Model Scheme at all rallies.
At the moment we have a situation where, generally speaking, all sites (licensed, CL or rally) have to cater for both caravans and motorhomes, any or none of which may have awnings attached (let's not forget that some motorhomers use awnings as well), and, therefore, the 6m between units has to be enforced for the sake of safety.
If, in future, there is a valid case for "stopovers" (for use by motorhomes and/or caravans without awnings) then it may well be that NE would accept a 3m separation distance as safe. They would, no doubt, decide on the merits of the case at the time.
At the moment the 6m rule is in force and is based on sound scientific tests (I used to have a reference but can't find it at the moment).
0 -
The problem with the MMM Guide (and some other web sites which profess to recommend overnight stopping places) is that they include the likes of pub car parks where camping is allowed by landlords who either don't know the law or don't care about it.
That is why gaps are so small.
If people use places run by such chancers it is their own look-out
0 -
Posted on 17/08/2018 16:10 by mhparking
At the moment the 6m rule is in force and is based on sound scientific tests (I used to have a reference but can't find it at the moment).
I've found the paper I was thinking of - https://www.thebuildinginspector.org/apps/blog/show/8173797-guest-blog-caravan-fire-safety
0 -
The mention of pub car parks made me think about beer.😀Very moreish but unfortunately alcoholic. Presumably as it is a car park, one of the occupants capable of driving would have to be very careful what they drank. I would assume the same would apply to an Aire utilising part of a P &R or town / village car park. When you walk into town to that restaurant some thought still needs to be given to who is the designated driver. More so in Scotland where the limit is now significantly lower. This would be particularly important if there was an emergency, such as a fire, which due to reduced spacing required the van to be moved.
0 -
-
In France that's considered a large gap
Of course its safe, no less safe than carparks where the gap is or seems to be 6 inches after all you could have a builders van parked next to you in Tescos full of paint, gas bottle, white spirit etc. and just thrown in the back not ordered with shut off valves etc.
1 -
True but neither you nor they would likely sleep or cook in such circumstances. The chances are you wouldn’t even be in the vehicle at all as you'd be busy spending in the shop. Not quite the same thing is it?
1 -
I've been looking into the Canterbury parking. The council website describes it as extra large dedicated parking for motorhomes with water and waste facilities. All references are to parking i can't find any planning or other documents online relating to the establishment of dedicated motorhome parking.
So as it's parking there's no need to worry about the space between vehicles because nobody is occupying parked vehicles right? I'm sure there's a sign somewhere saying vehicles are parked at your own risk
Hmmm. I think I see what's going on
0 -
And in Italy bridges fall down. (Dreadful by the way) We are talking different standards of safety, different mindsets, different cultures.
Dont get me wrong, a lot of the standards that are applied to certain things in this country, are to put it simply, there to avoid litigation rather than make life any pleasanter for communities or the public in general. But that's the culture we have, for better or for worse. Often over the top because of a tiny minority who take advantage and spoil it for everyone else.
1
.......is that safe ?????????
