Interesting Petition Part 2
Comments
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Thank you for explaining that....
Might be a good idea to keep the location a secret before a load of campervan/MH's descend on it and spoil it for you....!
But I doubt many Parish Council's will want to allow the use of car parks unless there is a revenue stream from it.
I am not against that idea at all, although I personally wouldn't use it, (my OH regards a serviced pitch and the new toilet block at Black Knowl as her minimum standard), but can see the idea would be attractive to some and happy for LA's (or Parish Council's) to make a bit of extra cash if it helps subsidise other public services...
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+1
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I know you mention that in general caravanners don't use solar panels and refillable gas etc but very many do.
We go to several festivals and a steam fair each year. There are large numbers of caravanners parked up perfectly happily. We even take our water with us - the luxury of towing with a pick up. We would happily use an aire if we could but we don't fancy changing to a MH to allow it
I don't believe that attitudes change due to vehicle type. We tour with our caravan very similarly to how touring with a MH is described. We even use busses and bikes.
I suspect that the demand for aire provision isn't huge and that a majority of MHrs would prefer to continue using sites. I don't think the impact of setting up a network of Aires is significant and I think it's a good idea. I've not signed the petition because it's poorly constructed, thought out and targeted but I'd happily sign a decent one
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Yes, I have voted in elections. The CAMC would be in rather a mess if nobody voted wouldn't it? No votes = no executive = nobody to manage the organisation.
As regards what I am asking for, may I refer you to the OP of the original thread - "Assuming that it receives sufficient support, I would hope that the CAMC would provide a reasoned response (whether positive or negative), based on constructive thought, rather than simply ignoring it.".
Given that such a response was provided then it would appear that the executive was satisfied as to why it should do so.
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Michael, you've edited your post since I first replied, so I will reply to the edited portion of your post......
The parish council obviously want to attract people to visit the area/village and the local pubs, shops etc. benefit from the visitors and that as mentioned before is a non tangible benefit, some people will spend nothing, others tens or hundreds of pounds (think shopping in Canterbury/York, eating out, paying for entrance fees etc) so I guess you take an average and you can justify without it costing anything, or having to make a profit on the provision.
The alleged benefits of M/H owners visiting towns & villages is much touted on here, and undoubtedly some will spend some money with local businesses, although we can only speculate on that, quite probably some will turn up, spend very little, fill the bins, dump their grey & black waste and cause friction with local residents...The cost of clearing up, emptying bins etc will have to be borne by someone, in the case you describe that would seem to be local council tax payers. The alleged extra revenue for local businesses may not percolate through to the PC or LA fast enough to compensate for this. I think it is wildly unrealistic to expect many councils in the UK to open up their car parks to campers, for free. Quite the opposite is happening, they are having height barriers to prevent the irresponsible few from entering.
You probably need to accept that any provision for M/H's ( or any other camper) will need some sort of entry control, basic facilities (recycling bins, CWP, a grid & probably a tap). This has to be paid for by someone. People shouldn't buy LV's if they aren't prepared to pay for at least basic facilities, and I don't personally believe that their alleged spend in a local town will fund all that......
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The alleged benefits of M/H owners visiting towns & villages is much touted on here, and undoubtedly some will spend some money with local businesses, although we can only speculate on that, quite probably some will turn up, spend very little, fill the bins, dump their grey & black waste and cause friction with local residents
Agreed and I did say that also, its intangible benefit. Majority do not cause friction but some do.
car parks to campers, for free.
Parking not camping and no one is saying it should be free!!!
You probably need to accept that any provision for M/H's ( or any other camper) will need some sort of entry control, basic facilities (recycling bins, CWP, a grid & probably a tap). This has to be paid for by someone. People shouldn't buy LV's if they aren't prepared to pay for at least basic facilities, and I don't personally believe that their alleged spend in a local town will fund all that......
Probably does need some entry system especially where travellers can be an issue but not required everywhere, but apart from that and longer bays they do not need anything else though if they do have more all the better, Again you say about not being prepared to pay, again there are a few in the minority who do not want to pay but the vast majority are willing to pay.
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TT, whilst Michael did make use of a free location in his post, he (and others, myself included) have said repeatedly that we are happy to pay for the privilege of parking close to a town....why wouldn't we?
if the charges were set at the right level, there's no reason why a facility couldn't be run at a small profit and then there would be no perceived onus on those having 'bought a ticket' to spend money in the town, nor anyone to expect it.
however, should any said MHer deign to stroll into town and buy dinner for two and a bottle of wine, perhaps the town might hang out some flags?
re the bins....presumably these are emptied on a scheduled round as they are used by car owners aren't they....
looking at most of the bins on laybys (one of Corners' perhaps?) they haven't been emptied in a month of Sunday's and you'd need a Cholera antibiotic injection before going near one
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Parking not camping and no one is saying it should be free!!!
The line between parking and camping is blurred. The overnight occupation of a vehicle is not parking. Places that allow overnight parking frequently make it clear that occupation of vehicles is not allowed.
I believe that occupying a vehicle that is designed to be lived in is camping and if it fell to my caseload I'd be referring it to enforcement. The club appear to agree with me as they state that councils would expect different standards of the club if they made the provision. The dictionary definition of camping is completely irrelevant
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sorry JVB, your post made it sound like you had extensive experience of touring in Europe in. a MH using Aires when in fact....
youve been to Europe once in a MH
youve not used any Aires
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So are all HGV drivers camping when they are legally obliged to pull over for a break/sleep?
I suspect in court the dictionary definition of camping would have to be used or can they just ignore the defined definition of a word and make it mean something else?
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Jay kindly helped out earlier with this 'idiosyncrasy' and the definition, in law, is not clear to us but the term 'occupancy' will have a bearing.
in France, the difference is pretty clear....kit all over the place is camping, not allowed in Aires.....just parking/sleeping/cooking is not camping and is allowed.
thanks again Jay.
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Rather a strange question.
My first post on this thread was at 7:49 today, simply to thank MichaelT and Rowena and express satisfaction with the CAMC response to date.
I subsequently replied (11:01) to a comment on that post by further explaining my position.
I then replied to your (11:22) comment on that post at 13:20.None of those posts included any new argument as I had no reason to put one forward.
It is not mandatory for posts to include arguments so why should I wish to argue for anything else when my final comment was that what I sought in the OP of the original thread had been provided?0 -
sorry you keep posting therefore I thought you wanted something else?
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The legislation controlling camping in caravans (which includes motorhomes) is the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960.
The applicable definition is not just what is found in a dictionary but that provided by S1(4) of the Act.
The 1960 Act covers caravans. HGV drivers sleeping in their cabs are governed by different legislation - recognising the extra obligations on them to take breaks by law.
See This Article for further explanation.
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half hour please.
I was watching that sketch last night, still funny
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I think we are broadly in agreement..............
I see no harm in plots of land (like LA car parks) that are predominantly vacant overnight being offered to LV users.............
But a car with no one living in it overnight is unlikely to generate as much litter as people staying in an LV, (beer/wine bottles, food packaging & scraps etc) so additional bin collections would very obviously be required. Nor will it need to dispose of grey & black waste. That all costs.....
So we seem to agree a small charge is required to cover the cost of those basic facilities.................
The economic benefit of you or anyone buying your tea and wine in my town is unlikely to percolate through to reduce my council tax so overall I'd prefer campers ("parkers") to fund their stay thanks....
And the overflowing bins demonstrate that cash strapped public services are unlikely to be rushing to divert cash to subsidise a cheap stay for wealthy LV users on their patch.....
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Ok then, fair enough
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I agree that the relate of fill will likely increase if vans were allowed to park, even if they paid (to fund) the extra collections...
but we can discuss cash strapped LAs till the cows come home, will corners ever get his potholes filled?
we have a short section of road near us that had its 'make good' markings several weeks (months ago)....nothing doing...
i could give you a long and sorry tale about how 'councils' fix holes (and today's other companies fix issues) but it would take too long...
althpugh the short version concerns a pothole ouside my brothers house which caused a serious problem...
man comes out, sprays hole with coloured 'paint'.
a few days later the spray has vanished in the rain...
reported, man comes again to spray more....run of bad weather does it again, what would you expect?
a different man comes with trailer, Tarmac, gravel, shovel etc....
has a look, sees hole, no paint....my brother points out hole.
ah, no markings, mate...more than my.....etc.....
back to square one, by this time, another adjacent area was crumbling.
when the second man eventually arrived (after getting the OK to fill the first hole) he filled it.....
of course my brother then said he was reporting the second hole and could he fill it in as he had all the kit and materials with him?
ah, hole not marked, mate.....more than my.....etc....
its not just the public sector, I had a similar long issue when a contracter cut through our broadband cable......
a only digs holes, b only fixes cable, c only fills in holes etc...and as for getting a joined up diary when these things can be coordinated, forget it...
whilst I have some sympathy with the end result of budget restriction in certain cases, it doesn't take much to see how the above is a tiny cameo of how 'processes/check sheets' etc are ramping up cost and reducing decent, speedy delivery of services.
and to contribute to this mess, 'wealthy' (or not) MHers generally pay their taxes don't they?
either way, whilst I support the concept, it's obvious that MH are seen as a blight and, despite the tax I paid on mine, I'll not hold any hope and just carry on what I've been doing.....visiting towns where they welcome 'wealthy' (surely not after buying one, lol?) MHers and understand what cheap, basic services are required to help enjoy them.
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BB, I don't doubt the (long...
) pothole story, and I'm sure there are inefficiencies in any organisation including LA's, but that's not going to make them throw their hands up and say "Come and camp (park) for free......."and to contribute to this mess, 'wealthy' (or not) MHers generally pay their taxes don't they?
I pay all my taxes, lots of them, but they don't let me in my local swimming pool for free.......!
just carry on what I've been doing.....visiting towns where they welcome 'wealthy' (surely not after buying one, lol?) MHers and understand what cheap, basic services are required to help enjoy them.
I'm sure that even "over here" you will find lots of sites, CL/CS's, THS, rallies etc close to those towns or a short bus or taxi ride away. An opportunity to put a fiver in a taxi drivers pocket and support the local economy.....
And when you're "over there"......well it's all good isn't it.......
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Steve
The way I read that was that the Club were agreeing with your comments above. They didn't say they were working to overcome those safety requirements just that those were the obstacles in the way of achieving what was set out in the petition. This indicated to me that the Club have no immediate or even long term plans to establish this type of overnight accommodation.
David
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+1
So over there as I have an extremely expensive camera and car they will give me free basic services to help me enjoy them, or is that just for MH?
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I was starting to think I’d wandered into the wrong thread, of even the wrong forum. Thanks Corners and TT, I now see I’m on familiar ground😀
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No my post advised that rather than one type of LV we have had experiance of several types of LV and the different methods of "camping" with what the differences are,at home and abroad,and see very little in the way they are used by the majority ,and as as said the OP is about finding ways of motor caravans a place to camp/park near a place that could be difficult with a motor caravan in the UK against a car from a car.caravan combination, ,then i can see no reasons to expect Any large inclusive "camping" organisation to push for exclusive alternative "parking/camping" arrangements for only one of their memberships
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Yes, a great article. I thought the following paragraphs particularly relevant to this thread.
"A third type of regular forum thread is the one complaining that the UK authorities should provide aire type facilities in a similar manner to countries in mainland Europe. Almost invariably, those who start the thread (and many of those who support them) have made no effort to contact any local authority to try to start constructive negotiations aimed at providing such facilities. The several on-line petitions that have been started in recent years have each attracted well under 1,000 signatures, a clear indication of the tiny minority of UK motorhomers who are actually willing to take the merest action to achieve aires.
Some claim that aires would bring economic benefit to towns because motorhomers would spend money there. That ignores the facts that many people stock up before leaving home and those that only want an overnight stop have no time to shop anyway. Such claims almost invariably discount the costs of setting up and managing facilities, often enough because the people making the claims simply have no concept of what is involved and make an inaccurate assumption that they are not significant."You make some good points there, MHP.
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, perhaps they need waterproof paint 
