Network Shrinkage
Comments
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My thoughts too. I've asked on a number of occasions if they intend to out in the reason for "closure" but it's apparent that they don't want to do that.......I wonder why!!
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I must admit that looking through the latest closures that there were a couple of very interesting sounding CLs with all the relevant infra structure one would be looking for so I might dig the details out and check on ukcampsites web pages in a few days time.
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Are the details of those that have closed on-line, WN. I like to keep my Site directory up to date with closures and can check back if we've used any in the past..
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ISTM that most months the closures in the Magazine are in double figures. I suspect that it is the lack of commitment by CAMC to the network that is precipitating the apparent closures. I suspect the reality is that many of them are defections, hence the lack of a "reason for closure".
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My wife and I now only use CL,s whereas until about 4 years ago we had predominately used club sites since we started caravanning in about 1978.
Why the change? 2 reasons! The first was the enforced regimentation of siting of vans which crept in a few years ago, but the second was the big rise in Club site fees.
The concept of caravanning had always been along the lines of the freedom and the inexpensive costs of the Pass time. The regimentation put an end to the freedom and the costs soon exceeded the £20 per night self imposed limit.. The CL corrected both of those issues as far as I was concerned, so it was goodbye to Club sites.
The rapid rate of CL closures worries me very much. So I have made a point of discussing it with a number of CL owners. In the main the root cause of them is the 5 Van limit. From their point of view the season tends to be quite short. A few vans in March, - very few! Then in April, a few more, but often none at all. May is better, as is June, but they are seldom full. Then in July, August, and partially September they are full and turning people away. October Quiet again and thats about it. They do not vary charges according to season and so their ability to recover their costs and earn a little pin money is essentially limited to about 12 weeks of a 52 week year.
If they could increase numbers to about 10, to maximise their take in that busy time they would turn a usual slight loss into a possible profit.
Their is very little help from the CC, so they look to getting local planning permission into becoming a small commercial site.
I suspect that the CC are not wanting to assist because the more small commercial sites grow, AND keep their prices below the very high CC prices on club sites, they are becoming a threat to the CC.
TF
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I have used CL's ever since I started caravanning in 1975. I have only stayed on 3 CC sites, there are too many people for my liking on the big sites.
The only "luxury" that I want is EHU, WiFi is fast becoming desirable too, but I am quite happy using the facilities in my van, I don't find it a problem in any way.
I think the Club ought to ask some of the Member CL owners to give us some idea of their problems, so that we may address them.
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I first joined the club in 1986 using CLs and some commercials. I didn't use my first club site until 2007. Given the way the prices are rising, this usage of club sites is declining and might become non-existent fairly shortly. It's only the CL network that makes membership worthwhile.
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Out of the recent closures I have managed to find 2 that have gone independent, 6 that have ceased to take tourers for various reasons including death of owner, too much hassle and not financially viable. Haven't had time as yet to look into rest of them, but will.
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No, F, they are not "invariably cheaper on a like for like basis" although they often have special offers for set periods of stay. (Like for like, I assume means a per night basis.)
Anyway, back to CLs, I too am sad to see the continued decline in numbers. Some don't help themselves, of course - how often do we read on here from members who have contacted CLs only to get no reply for some considerable time?
By contrast, only today, I've booked a CL in mid Wales for a week in June. Emailed this afternoon, heard back within an hour, emailed again for clarification and again heard back promptly. Maybe some CLs need to be a bit more reactive to member's enquiries (busy as I realise they are!)
Edit - beat me to it, Alan!
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Until the CC genuinely accepts that the CL network is important to them and realises that they are important to the survival of the whole business, the decline will continue.
Wake up CC and smell the coffee. Times are rapidly changing, and until you accept that the survival of the CL is the key to the survival of the whole business, you will be in a fatal spiral!
Once the CL network becomes so small that it is no longer of significance, many members like me will cease to be members, and then you will only have a chain of overpriced club sites to attract members. That was fine once upon a time, but times have changed. Once you attracted members because membership meant that you could recoup your membership costs within about a year of frequent use. Today Club sites are dearer than many commercial sites offering similar facilities. That is a recipe for disaster!
The coffee smell quite good outside!
TF
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Seems to me that CLs are an odd quirk resulting from a bit of planning legislation from long ago which the rest of the western world luckily escaped. Most CLs are in the wrong place and have the wrong provision and the wrong design for what the modern customer and certainly the modern motorhomer wants. More and more of them will fade away - and time too.
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You are of course entitled to your opinion ET but I would say that most are in the right place. The level of provision is debatable, as we all have differing wants/needs. As you can see from every other post many members do not want them to "fade away".
If you are not a user of CLs it probably does not matter to you but you should respect the concerns of members that do use them.
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Just a question to those that mainly use CL's or at at least are regular users of CL's. What is the general age profile of users, for example do you get many younger families use them or is the general experience that it is mainly the 50 plus age group who enjoy the peace and quiet offered?
David
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There are a number of factors in play and many are fairly recent.
1) Current ruling is over 60 years old and the tourism sector has changed
2) Planning regulations have been relaxed under Govmnt pressure, even in National Parks,
3) Diversification is the way forward for farmers and rural businesses.
4) Plethora of Government and Quango organisations advising and assisting farmers with diversification plans. Even Tourism grants are available.
5) Vans have changed from basic hut on wheels to luxury accommodation with all sorts of gizmos making the need for say EHU more prevelant
6) Motorhomes are a fairly new trend hence more need for hardstandings.
7) Financially impossible to provide the needed facilities with the 5 unit restriction.
8)Planning fees inconsequential in the cost of increasing unit numbers and planners have more control of sites that have planning permission.
9) Other organisations now using the system to directly to compete with CC.
10) The apparent non interest by CC in te Cl network.
All in all the future looks bleak unless some action is taken.I realise this is anathema to some diehards but I can see no other way than a relaxation on numbers
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What will kill the CL is members not wishing to pay enough for the privilege of using them and/or not using them. Although I have fond memories of the CL network right through the 1980s they were then pretty basic for the much part. A favourite bolt hole of mine was between Tarvin and Oscroft. Two rows of level flags, probably a manhole for emptying toilet and a wooden shed with toilet and handwash. They sold honey and beeswax that I finished home made furniture with. A few adjacent paddocks and I used to love to see the guinea fowl 'herd' go running off in the morning and back before dusk. It was useful as my wife had a number of aunts, uncles, cousins, also parents in the area and we attended christenings, marriages, birthdays etc.
The point is that I have no idea how much they charged but I doubt that it was as low as £1.50 a night which would be the equivalent of £8 or so now.
There are a couple of CLs that I would wish to use when we visit certain areas. They have EHU and hard site track which I prefer. Toilets as well I think and possibly showers. Probably around £18 to £20 a night which is fine by me.
Can anybody remember what they were paying in the 80s?
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Fisherman, - A very accurate summation of the current picture!
ET, That was a pretty insensitive comment re CL's being in the wrong place, wrong provision & wrong design. You obviously have never used them or you would appreciate that they are private initiatives by private owners on their own land. It is a matter for them regarding location, provision & design. They are natural locations that owners think might be useful to caravaners wishing to locate to their area.
TF
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Believe meTigerfish, I have used them...but the world has moved on.
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A Cornish CL we often used was very popular with family groups in the summer so we tended to use it out of the main holidays. It was in a lovely spot and I'm sure our family would have loved it too, a waterside site with loads of space to freely explore. Much depends on where a site is and what's nearby for families. This particular place is not a cheap CL, no extras but has the added value of being in a very good spot.
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David we tend to use CLs out of school holiday times so our view of average age etc. is somewhat skewered. During last autumns spell away we stayed on CLs that were mostly full and I would say that 80% of the members staying were in the 50-75 year age range, the other 20% being working people seen at weekends, about half with children.
The Cls we stayed in summer had a very similar split. Maybe someone who stays on CLs when children are on their holidays can answer your question for that particular period.
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We often used CL'S with the children at weekends and during school holidays, there were often other families onsite too. Have to admit that now we tend to take our breaks outside the school holidays so have not seen many recently. Reading CL reviews though they do seem to be used by families.
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Been looking at Freedom Camping website. When reading the "about us" section they make great emphasis on the fact they can also issue Camping Certification for small sites.
Big difference though in that they issue on available space with some sites being up to 30 or more units.
No joining fee and a free night each year.
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The law however only allows them to offfer camping for 5 "caravans", irrespective of the site size under the "exemption" scheme*. They can of course get local Authority Planning consent for a site of whatever number they can successfully apply for, or if they limit use to 28 days per year basically do what they want.
"Caravans" includes Motorhomes, tents are covered by different provisions.
The 5 caravan limit is not a CMC rule other than complying with the law, something all organisations have to face.
There are also provisions for "meets" up to 28 days per year.
*- Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960
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I remember them being around £1.50 a night in the eighties but there was no electric hook-up then.
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Inflation calculator shows£1-50 in 1980 is £7.23 today.Likewise£2-50 is £12.06. From what we the payers consider a fair price it cant be that ,that is the cause of the shrinkage. I recon on under £10 for basic sits and £12/14 for EHU and hard standing. Very few Cls are in that range today. My previous post I believe meets most of the reasons.
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Fisherman. I have posted many times on the costs (and time) of running a CL, so won't bore you again, but in just to answer you point about EHU and HS in terms of Return on Investment, it cost me circa £5,000 to instal EHU 5 years ago.
I'm about to spend circa £8,000 on Hardstanding. No doubt some CL's can do h/s cheaper but my site is on a slope which means levelling / carting soil etc. and I don't have my own machinery or farm labour, so will need to hire it in. I reckon the ROI for me will be 4-5 years, and we are a relatively busy CL, charging £17/night. IF we stay as busy as we have been and don't get more competition locally. For many CL's the ROI would be longer.
Would you be willing to take that kind of risk with your own money? Maybe I'm crazy to keep investing in our CL.
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