Network Shrinkage
Comments
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As long as I can remember I have been to CLs where there has been more than 5 units so this isn't a new happening and the system hasn't been shut down yet. Most things in life change when it is realised that what was fitting years previous are not applicable in today's world. These changes are normally brought about by a change in legislation.
When CLs started, caravans were uncommon and cars were nowhere near as abundant as they are today. As a percentage there were more pitches available to the number of caravans than there are now, some 50 or 60 years later. In real terms the cost per night now is far less as a percentage of average income than it was years ago so farms, which is where the majority of CLs were and probably still are, are getting a far smaller income from CLs than years previous but now with the addition of EHUs, hard standings and showers etc etc.
So personally, and having close connection to the farming industry, I wouldn't shop a CL for having an extra unit especially if there was plenty of room and I wasn't inconvenienced by this extra unit. If by turning a blind eye I can help keep that CL, and probably the farm itself, in business then I will do.
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I give up!
Some people clearly prefer to cut off their nose to spite their face.
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Why are so many averse to the idea of lobbying for an increase? Are they really that convinced that it will result in the complete withdrawal of the exemption? Given the government support for the concept of diversification in rural businesses, I can't see that happening.
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I've always been a fan of CL's, even before there was EHU's available. Now it seems that everybody needs EHU's which most farmers are happy to supply.
What has caused the decline is that Vanners are demanding from the farmers "all singing all dancing CL's with metalled roads, hard standings, and Toilets/showers". Those are very expensive to install and maintain. The income from a maximum of 5 vans does not support this level of bling.
But instead of increasing the number of pitches, Farmers should just provide the basics on their CL's. A fresh water tap. Somewhere to empty the Elsan, An EHU and somewhere to dump Grey waste.---- That's all that is required. Anybody wanting any more bling should just go to a full function camping site.
K
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Should they?
Isn't it down to personal choice on the part of both the user and the provider? Not everyone wishes to follow the rule of K.
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Looking at the number of CLs available on the club's web site today it would appear that there's been a loss of 57 in total since the 2017/18 Site Directory was published. A quick check through the SD indicted that there were about 90 new CLs which would infer that nearly 150 have closed/left the organisation over that time. Of this number it appears that, of the 150, there were twice as many sites that had EHU compared to those without.
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In the old days the only advertising available was the CC magazine/book, hence the number of Cls. Now its much easier to advertise on the web. New search engines, other associations etc.etc. We the punters also can assess much more of what is available in a locality with huge choice of Cls, commercials of every size and make a choice. However the club stlll wants to remain as outdated and 60 years old. No wonder the losses are mounting up.
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Nail on the head,all these new vans need electrical hook up,need water connection, hard standing.... when in fact they should be self contained only needing a patch of grass to rest on, use of fresh water tap somewhere and an area for waste disposal, the decline will continue brought on by caravan owners wanting more when in fact with a modern van you require less.
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When the new magazine came out I tried to have a look at the CL's that had closed but they seem to remove them from the website before they publish so difficult to check to get a feel for what sort of CL's are closing. Even looking at reviews elsewhere it doesn't seem to throw much light on the subject. I did notice a couple that seem to be concentrating on permanent accommodation like cottages.
David
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Agree DK. Some have other irons to fry, and are losing or altering CL status. I have a degree of sympathy for K's view as well. We are doing our best to support some of the more basic sites, but don't condone others for wanting more.
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Farmers should just provide the basics on their CL's. A fresh water tap. Somewhere to empty the Elsan, An EHU and somewhere to dump Grey waste.---- That's all that is required.
That is, apparently all that you require. Others may have slightly (or even greatly) different requirements
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I suppose some CL close because they have over priced themselves and are not getting people on pitches. I know of a couple of CL's about 1.5 miles apart. this year one charges £17 for EHU, Shower and toilets while the other charges £16 for EHU and wifi, then about 4 miles up the road is a CL with hardstanding and EHU which charge £13, know which one I go to.
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Us too, cariadon. However those ones may have disappeared as CLs and become small commercial sites. We'll be using a couple, at least, of those type of sites during our next trip. However the ones we have booked so far are still no more than £15 pn.
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I'd like to give a bit of perspective from the other side of the Post and Rail if I may..
If you are a farmer or smallholder with a spare bit of land and are looking for some additional income / visitors to your farm you have an increasing number of choices ahead of you. Opening a CL is one choice but there are many others.
The growing trend at the moment is for 'Glamping'. A Shepherds Hut or Glamping Pod can seem like a much more attractive option to many farmers as the return on investment (although initial investment is probably higher than a CL) can be recouped in 2 or 3 years. Even the Club has leapt onto this bandwagon with their own glamping yurts and pods, as have a number of award-winning CL's.
Until members realise these facts - and stop expecting a farmer to be happy with £5/night - the decline in the network will continue as CL owners retire and the new generation seek a better return on their assets.
I know of a highly popular CL which charges over £20/night that will close next year. The owners are now making a good return after significant investment. Occupancy is high and customer satisfaction is 5* but the parents, who set up the CL, are retiring and the younger generation would prefer to have income from holiday lodges.
I have said this before, but the expectations of most members regarding pricing of CL's is unrealistic.
If you want an exclusive place to stay in the countryside - with a limit of 5 vans - and you want the CL to be open for business next year and the year after, then you need to expect to pay a realistic sum for it.
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CholseyGrange
Interesting post that could explain why opening a CL, or keeping it open is now less attractive. There was a well known campsite in Oxfordshire that had been popular for years but the next generation decided to change the business model and it is no longer a campsite but a wedding venue with Glamping.
For us, where we stay, is governed by where the place is rather than the cost. If its near a town/village or on a bus route we would consider that first rather than cost. Being a motorhomer I would prefer a site with hardstanding and EHU but don't need toilet and showers.
David
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I would also add that the club does very little to help CL's or the CL network, even new ones.
Since opening 2 years ago we still have very low numbers and have reduced our fees and overheads this year. At present we make a signicant loss despite taking on advice from members and other CL owners within the network. We have made suggestions to the club how they may help and have even offered magazine articles to the club which have been ignored or declined.
Last week our CL listing was suspended due to our electric certificate being overdue. We appreciate that this is our responsibility, but we are new to this (the first time we needed it retesting), we are not open until April anyway (by which time it will be retested), and the clubs (now infamously) new issue riddled IT systems failed to post the three warning letters and one newsletter that would have warned us of this impending suspension. PLUS, we spoke to the club a week or so ago who checked and said that all was ok! We since spoke to them and they said given their lack of notifying us (as they didn't try to email or call either) that they would provide us a few weeks grace, but this has subsequently been ignored and via emails even the line manager's unwilling to budge on the matter.
With such an unhelpful attitude, little investment in encouraging the use of CLs, and no assistance for struggling/new CLs it is little wonder why so many are closing.
This year we've decided to just run the site how/when we want, at our lowest possible rate, but unless something significantly changes we too will most likely close next year.
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Oly, I am sorry to hear that story. Operating as a CL is clearly as restrictive for you as it is for would be visitors . Restrictions all round.
I see that two other small sites near you in the Nantwich area are operating independently - one with 10 pitches and one with 15, no restrictions on who they can and cannot take, and no restrictive rules enforced by Club officials. I wonder how they are getting on?
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Our thoughts exactly. If we do carry on with the site outside the club that'll probably be the route we follow. Getting planning permission that will last forever will cost only slightly more than the admin fees the club requires on an annual basis!
Our holiday cottage has been open independently for the same duration as the CL. In contrast to the CL it is a joy to run, good returns for much less effort/admin. Which makes me agree with Ted that a glamping arrangement may well work too (although I worry that that may have had its day too).
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I can only sigh with exasperation at the ineptitude of this club. I personally wouldn't blame any CL owner for sticking two fingers up to the club. The club love to tout the CL as being their jewel in the crown. It should be but the club are letting that jewel slip away slowly, more in apathy than anything else.
My heart goes out to CL owners that really want to stay with the club and have them work together only to meet negative attitudes. Thanks for your efforts one and all.
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This club's CL losses are the other club's gains. I've spotted a few familiar ones with a different sign at the gate.
The ability to take 5 vans and 10 tents helps as well although tent users would probably need WC and shower facilities.
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But the most vocal of LV owners want more and more all singing /dancing sites even if they have all their own facilities,so until all the organisations involved in 5van sites( as per the present legislation)get their heads together and all lobby govenment to increase the amount of units allowed ,and make it worthwhile for owners to invest in upgrading their site,to cater for the modern RV owners then there will be a continual loss to all networks
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Hi All
For some years now the Club has made it a requirement of running a CL that owners provide us with proof that they are adequately insured and have had safety checks done on both Electric Hook Ups and non-mains water supplies (if it’s relevant to their site).
This has proved to be a major and very labour intensive piece of work for the CL’s department but the Club has a responsibility here to ensure owners are complying with Health & Safety requirements to protect both members and themselves.
Sites are certificated due to the Club’s exemption status and these certificates run on an annual basis from 1st January to 31st December each year regardless of whether a site is open all year or for just part of that year. We ask all sites to prove to us that they have up-to-date annual Public Liability Insurance cover and other safety certificates in place for the beginning of each New Year when we re-certificate. If we don’t know a site is safe we cannot issue them with their annual certificate.
For sites that have not been certificated for 2018 we have temporarily withdrawn them from the website to make it clear to members that they are unavailable.
This is a new process for 2018 and I am sure members and owners alike appreciate that we cannot ‘advertise’ a site until it is certificated by us as it could result in either members staying on site or bookings being made prior to our annual approval of the site.
We are pleased to say that this year, 95% of owners have provided us with the correct ‘paperwork’ to date which has allowed the seamless continuity of running their site.
We work hard to work with local land owners to provide a large network of CL’s across the UK. We are continually introducing new sites with improved facilities for members to enjoy, but equally we must have some constraints about how we operate our Certification.
The limit of 5 vans on a CL site is governed by Natural England and the Club is not in a position to seek amendments to Government legislation which dictates our 5 van rule restriction.
We do appreciate that there are CL owners who wish to increase the size of their sites, and to do that a commercial license is required. We do all we can as a team to work with the owner to see if the CL can be retained alongside a commercial venture, but this is not always possible.
Thank you
Maddie0 -
The limit of 5 vans on a CL site is governed by Natural England and the Club is not in a position to seek amendments to Government legislation which dictates our 5 van rule restriction.
Why is the club not in a position to seek amendments to the legislation? Surely, along with the C&CC, this should be the sort of thing that the clubs be trying to do, in one form or another.
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Just as I predicted earlier in this thread, we get finger pointing by those who use their on-board facilities and expect that we should all do the same.
I am a regular CL user and my preference is for a shower and a toilet, that is my and many others choice. Obviously I expect to pay more for these facilities, they still work out much cheaper than CMC sites and are usually quieter often with a personal touch.
I spoke to a Motorhome owner recently who looked puzzled when I said that I stayed on 5 pitch CL sites, she had no idea they existed.
One day she may be right.
Come on HO, help your CL network before it's too late.
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But as I posted earlier there is little chance of anything being changed until All the organisations who hold excemption certificates give a united front then nothing will change, the cc might be the largest but there are numerous others out there also who could also do something
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The limit of 5 vans on a CL site is governed by Natural England and the Club is not in a position to seek amendments to Government legislation which dictates our 5 van rule restriction.
Maddie
With respect that seems to be an excuse by the Club for doing nothing. Surely the Club has a view on that question? I think we all understand how the current law is but it has existed for many, many years and things do need reviewing from time to time. Maybe an approach to Natural England might draw a negative response but unless that approach is made we have no idea what their current thinking is on the subject. It may well be that they want to maintain the status quo but unless we talk to them about it how do we know? Perhap the Club should allow its CL's to accept tents as well just like the C&CC which might protect some from closure on economic grounds?
David
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