Network Shrinkage
I see from the current magazine that we have lost a further 13 CLs with no new ones at all this month. Particularly disconcerting is that yet another one that I have visited has closed. I'm beginning to wonder if a visit from me is the "kiss of death".
Why are we seeing this inexorable decline? Is it the increasing desire for full facilities which make it uneconomic for small operators, a shortage of "a new generation of adventurers"or whatever that buzzphrase was, the minimal cash return that make owners think "it's not worth the bother" or is it really all my fault?
Comments
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No not your fault CY
I joined in 1986 and then there were around 5000 cl's
So the decline to it's present day total is around 50%
If that rate continues it will spell the end of cl's so perhaps another 30 years. I don't think that will bother me then,0 -
I think there are many factors for the closure,
May be to expensive to add extras that the modern caravanner expects like 16 amp, WiFi, and hard standing.
Price rise for utilities and Insurance
Or finding the hard work for little return is not worth it,
Or simply have retired.
Don't think it was anything you said CY.
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If my memory serves me correctly you started a very similar thread a few years back CY.
It sparked off a debate on members who preferred full facility CLs Vs those who chose basic ones.
My views remain the same we all have different needs and budgets and so there is room for all types of CL. It would be interesting to know which ones are closing, the basic ones or the ones with a shower/toilet.
CLs are my site of choice so any decline is a sad blow as far as I am concerned.
Maybe they need promoting more by the club? Perhaps a CL owner could give us an opinion?
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Difficult to figure. I joined in 1980. We used a lot of CLs up until around 1986 as well as other sites. After that date and a house move we used few CLs.
If the number of CLs have dropped that much then the surprising thing is that the number of caravans, campervans and motorhomes seem to have greatly increased. On my road and the few hundred metres of road that I use leaving home there are around 7 or 8 caravans. Back in 1987 when I moved here mine was the only one.
For me if I were to use a CL it would need to have EHU and, at least, a metaled access track
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We are stuck with a 60 year old system (5 vans) and until we see some flexibility to make investment worthwhile the trend will continue. Whilst Cls close, small scale (12/15) unit sites are increasing, many of course Cls moving away from the club system. Planners look favourably at these smaller sites application and most nodded through even in the Nat Park without recourse to a full planning meeting. That's life and nothing will change unless say CC takes up the issue of numbers.
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It would be useful if we were told the reason for the closures, as we used to. Perhaps HO don't want us to know that some have now become small scale sites, as indicted above. Come on CL Maddie please give us the info, on here as well as in the magazine.
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The nature of caravanning has altered greatly over the last 30 years. The youngsters of those days, like us, are now getting older and perhaps prefer/need things slightly easier than a field, a tap, a refuse bin, a CDP point. (Although we still love and use such sites).
Those a bit younger/new to touring will never have made do with such basics, so it is possibly a scary environment, not worth the effort, or they just prefer to roll in easily, hook up easily, log on easily, ablute away from the van, with minimum effort. It is after all, supposed to be leisure time! The number of members saying that they are going to try more CLs seems to bear this out, and it is probably only the rising Club Site prices that tip them into considering such a move.
There are of course lots of folks between the two extremes.
Neither type of touring is wrong, it's just personal preference, and there are probably a lot more now in the latter category than in the former. Trying to recoup expenditure on lots of extras provided will not be easy in some instances, especially if the CLs are not in highly popular tourist areas, with other reasons for people to visit the area. But I do hope the lovely little basic sites do survive and multiply.
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They used to publish that information in the magazine. I assume something happened to change their mind? It's all very well saying a CL has closed because the owner retire but a completely different thing to say a site has closed because of implied irregularities! You just can't publish such things these days.
On the wider point of CL numbers. Clearly from the point that many users of CL's are looking for electricity and perhaps hardstandings with toilet/shower facilities a nice to have you do have to question whether the investment can be justified with only five units being able to use a CL as mentioned up thread. What might be interesting to know is what type of CL is closing. Is it the basic CL that might only attract custom in the summer months? To get a reasonable return on a CL with good facilities perhaps people have to accept the cost per night might well have to be £15/20 a night which brings them into direct competition with lower priced sites and people start voting with their feet?
David
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I don't think toilet and washroom facilities are such a stumbling block - nor necessarily hard standings. But I believe that many, like me, will use a non facility site but do want at least a stoned track and EHU. This however might make it difficult if a CL were close to a CC non facility site
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Agree totally DK. It's a lucky CL that can survive repeat seasons if they are on the more basic side and not in a high footfall area. A lot of farm CLs do well, probably because they are well capable of doing a lot of the infrastructure themselves, with things like electrics certified externally. We have watched one lovely farm ex CL grow from a five van site into a very nice private site of around 28 pitches, and the vast majority of the work was done "on the farm" as they had the equipment and know how. Owner was just awaiting electrics to be finished and certified last time we were there. They even built the spanking toilet and shower block as well. We stayed on another CL similar in Shropshire. This farm had kept the five van CL area, but had put in a 10 seasonal pitch area close by, with metered electrics. The waiting list for a seasonal pitch was already growing! The hook ups for the CL were still included in pitch price, and again it had a lovely toilet block, probably funded from seasonal pitches, but CL users benefited as well. Lots of different developments. Price wise, we pay £16 in Winter for the private site, and the CL with the seasonal pitches was only £13 per night, and each pitch there had services for water and waste water at each pitch, so it can be done.
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We use CLs all the time but have two friends with motorhomes who need hardstanding and a bus service. Could the fact that a lot of caravanners have gone over to motorhomes have something to do with the closures?
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The trend is there for all to see but no one seems to want to look at lifting the numbers. What is the difference with C & CC who have 5 vans and 10 tents. To the planners its 15 units with their vehicles etc. Does the C& CC network shrink as fast as the CC? Takethedogallong shows typical examples of what is happening. Is there a web site that has these small commercials I wonder.
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I doubt that it was because of any increase in motorhomes really.
I started caravan use a little over 35 years ago. Some reports from members on here suggest that there were twice as many CLs available then. I have no idea. I do believe that there are less now though. There were campervans and motorhomes in use them as well even if not as high a percentage as at present.
If I were to guess I would think that the ownership of caravans has increased more than three fold. I think that the change is due to more commercial sites and the two club's sites having hardstand but probably more importantly stoned tracks between pitches. When I started most club sites were grassed areas with a stoned track. They probably had more room as on my last 7 week holiday before my wife was diagnosed with cancer we used 13+ sites and were usually able to hitch up the night before departure and arrange to arrive on the next site at 11am or earlier.
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I doubt it to be honest, we see lots of Motorhomers on CLs. More nowadays, but they have always been around. Not all MH owners park up like a caravan and need to use the bus. One all grass CL we used in Wales was all MHs, next one four out of five were. Probably in Winter most prefer HS, but then again I suspect majority of caravanners do as well.
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On the other hand, one CL owner with a manicured grass pitching area told us that at the start and end of his season he tells motorhome users that he is fully booked because he does not want them cutting up his site.
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Ukcampsites has a lot. We aren't advocating that CLs become small commercials, just showing how some options have been created, and most importantly, have kept the prices very reasonable. It all depends what the owners want from the sites. Profits yes and so they should. But over how long a period? If it's part of something else, then the CL may be viable to keep on. If it is the main source of income, then it's either going to cost a lot to stay, quickly develop with different options, or simply close. The "hobby" CLs are the ones probably closing, those opened to make use of a big garden, to meet people etc.... Folks age and pass away, new generation might not be as interested for the effort required, not enough money in it.
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I suppose what we should do is the next time a list of closures is published we should check them out on here (assuming they were not removed quickly!) to see if a pattern develops, ie sites with no facilities. Pure guesswork but I would imagine it's easier to call it a day for a CL which is not much more than a field compared to a CL where the owners have probably spent serious money on electrics and or hardstandings. I suppose there is also the possibility that they may have gone across to the other side, especially if they could get a bit more money by the extra tents mentioned by Fisherman.
David
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I thought about two of our grown up children who like camping but can't afford vans. Both of them like small out of the way sites, our son and family also like using "pods" so I guess if you can have some tent pitches it could be more viable (but you'd probably need some wash facilities too.)
We even looked at buying a CL in Cornwall ourselves a few years back but the move didn't suit us at the time, that particular CL vanished, often a sale will end the CL if new owners aren't interested.
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I joined CCC when I camped with my sister, so we could use CS's. Despite there being an allowance of up to 10 tents as well as five vans, they were never that busy. Some lovely locations as well.
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Modern caravans and motorhomes are jam packed with electrical devices. If you were to use CLs without EHU all the time you would have thousands of pounds worth of equipment sitting idle due to the lack of EHU (electric hob, microwave, TV and satellite etc.). Some motorhomes now have aircon as standard. I know that many like to go off-grid but for those who have invested heavily in all this equipment and don’t want to compromise then they want EHU. Unfortunately this is a substantial cost for a CL owner which must be very hard to recoup.
It is also true that motorhomes are far more popular and some CLs may not be suitable.
So, modern trends require modern facilities and CLs will struggle more and more.
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There is one CL that I shall likely use and I think they charge £18 or over. Not checked this year but I would happily pay more as it has decent stoned access and pitches, EHU etc and nice outlook. I think a toilet but I know not a lot more. However it is in an area that I visited in 2017 and unlikely to use it until 2020 (god willing).
The point is that I am willing to pay £18/20 and more for the right CL but wonder how many are.
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We paid £20 a night for a CL last year. For that we got a large HS serviced pitch, 16A EHU, toilet, shower, awning and dogs included and free WiFi. Oh and glorious views across the valley to Pendle Hill. The alternative would have been a commercial site just down the road, surrounded by trees and £35 a night. My point being that if a CL offers better value and a better situation than the nearby alternatives we'll use it and happily pay.
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We had an enjoyable stay at Greetham Retreat C L last year and thought it good value at £18 a night.16A EHU, toilet, shower, awning and dogs included, free WiFi and very well kept grounds.
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I did just that last year David and it was more often sites that had EHU that were disappearing rather than the basic site without any facilities. The numbers will be somewhere on here in a previous post. Perhaps it's those sites that are changing into small commercial sites and the CC won't admit that that's what's occuring.
As far a CLs in general are concerned we'll stopped on 6 of them this trip, all of them H/S with EHU, ranging from £10 to £14 pn, two with toilets, one with free wifi, and a different one with individual water taps, none of these being the dearest either.
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That proves the point that a CL investing in EHU and hardstandings cannot recoup the cost with the 5 van limit so needs to go commercial. The demand for non-EHU CLs must be lower so maybe the network can still satisfy those that are happy off grid.
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Fear not Q, there are still a lot of gems out there for those prepared to support them, and not over demanding in terms of having Club Site facilities close to hand. There are some lovely small private sites as well, a world away from being "commercial".
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Well, I am for one. if the site has good views and is well maintained.
I think there are two sorts of CL user; one who wants a cheap alternative to the cost of the big sites, and one who wants the exclusivity of the five vans sites with the peace and quiet and usually large pitches, and is prepared to pay for it.
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