Increase size of CLs?
Comments
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It looks a lovely site DD, I agree. Lots of space. That's why I asked my question regarding going down the LA route. I think for anyone wanting to set up a site as a thriving business, then given what a lot of tourers now like/demand, then going down the
alternative route may be best, even if there are more hoops to jump through initially. There appear to be pro's and con's to each method. I doubt that a single 5 van CL site could be a sustainable stand alone business, but as diverification might work well
to bring in more income.0 -
What is meant by a 'stand alone business'? I can't imagine any CL being seen as a sole source of income as,even if it was full every day of the year it would only produce a net income of £15-20K. It is usually a second income stream to an existing business.
As for HS on CLs, it does enable a longer 'season' and is more attractive to MHs. It doesn't have to be every pitch or indeed a 'solid' one. Reinforced grass with either plastic or embedded screen walling can provide a strong yet aesthetic surface. What
could kill CLs is an increasing demand for shower/loo blocks which can rarely be justified on a cost/income basis. Those facilities are already provided by the majority of CC sites.CLs provide a 'cheap and simple' option. Don't destroy that option by excessive infrastructure demands.
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That's what I meant CY, hard for a CL to be sole source of income, not enough profit in it. Hence if anyone is considering opening a site, applying for more pitches via LA route would be option. Opening a CL, with five pitches is a fine balancing act between
expenditure and income, wanting to put more pitches on might reap quicker profits, but isn't the ethos of CLs/CS's.Agree totally with your view of CLs. A lot we stay on have a mix of grass and HS/stabilised pitches. We tour throughout Winter months with little problem.
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What is meant by a 'stand alone business'? I can't imagine any CL being seen as a sole source of income as,even if it was full every day of the year it would only produce a net income of £15-20K. It is usually a second income stream to an existing business.
As for HS on CLs, it does enable a longer 'season' and is more attractive to MHs. It doesn't have to be every pitch or indeed a 'solid' one. Reinforced grass with either plastic or embedded screen walling can provide a strong yet aesthetic surface. What
could kill CLs is an increasing demand for shower/loo blocks which can rarely be justified on a cost/income basis. Those facilities are already provided by the majority of CC sites.CLs provide a 'cheap and simple' option. Don't destroy that option by excessive infrastructure demands.
Write your comments here...
an excellent post sir. We have many folk asking if we have a shower block. Er no its a CS. I think some people don't get the concept of cl Cs.
as for income, unless you are in a tourist hotspot there is no money in cl Cs I can assure you, it is in effect a hobby for many of us. I wish it could sustain us as I would happily fully retire tomorrow and spend my days mowing and strimming and stuff.
That would be wonderful0 -
It looks a lovely site DD, I agree. Lots of space. That's why I asked my question regarding going down the LA route. I think for anyone wanting to set up a site as a thriving business, then given what a lot of tourers now like/demand, then going down the
alternative route may be best, even if there are more hoops to jump through initially. There appear to be pro's and con's to each method. I doubt that a single 5 van CL site could be a sustainable stand alone business, but as diverification might work well
to bring in more income.Judging by what many members have said to us and wonderful reviews posted we do have a spacious and lovely CL takethedogalong, and we're not planning on going commercial. Although I understand the rules say 5 vans, I believe a simple way to help CL's become
more profitable would be to gauge there capacity by square meterage. Let's say we allot a 12 meter square plot - pitch per outfit. If your site based on these dimensions can still offer a site where the members don't feel hemmed in, claustrophobic, then why
not allow it. Yes it may mean we have to lobby the government, which possibly won't happen, but if the CL network is to flourish in the future then something like this may need to happen. These are purely ideas based on frustration at having to turn people
away. We are going to investigate opening a second CL and see where that takes us.EV0 -
The trouble is EV, it would not be a CL if it had more than 5 vans. It is knowing that there can only be a maximum of 5 vans on site that so many value in the current CL network.
That is not going to change,
I have argued many times in the past that with 5 vans maximum, the key is to keep costs down to an absolute minimum and even so, a CL is never going to be very much more than a hobby business.
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Hi EV, I said two days ago that I thought you would soon outgrow the confines of CL regulations. I didn't realise it would happen quite so soon ! You say you are frustrated at having to turn people away, and your would be visitors must be equally frustrated
too.You ask about relating number of pitches to size of area, and I can only suggest something like the French regulations for Aires Naturelles - for a long time the limit was 25 outfits provided that one hectare (2.5 acres) was available - and they have just
increased that limit to 30. That's why there are pitches for everyone over there but a desperate shortage of pitches over here. CL owners don't make much money. Caravan owners have to book way ahead.0 -
Maybe then my idea of "Super CL's" that allow more units (given space) and would make spending on infrastructure more worthwhile might one day be a possibillity? It would also allow those content with the traditional CL to continue to enjoy them.
The trouble is the exemption legislation, I cannot see it ever being increased to any more than 5 vans even for a "Super CL"
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The point I was making was that governments CAN change the rules. The French government did just that. Our government could too - just as they recently changed planning regulations for home extensions.
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Yup, got that.
I just wonder in this country with all the detractors of caravanning and caravanners, a lack of space for housing and planning departments under pressure generally the governent might just do away with the exemption certificate scheme altogether if pushed for a change in legislation.
That would be problematic for the CC as so many claim on here they are only now in the CC for access to the CL network
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It is the space that is valued by us. What keeps us off Club Sites. We like a lot of space, not that hemmed in by other vans aspect that you get on all Club Sites, and a few CLs nowadays. We carry a long hook up cable, and like to use it to our advantage
where we can, that is if we hook up at all. If I am being bluntly honest, I would rather share a huge space with an extra van, than be tightly pitched next to four others. I can have that on a Club Site.Doesn't bother us in the least if a CL is adjacent to another CL, or a CS, or a commercial area, so long as we get plenty of space and don't have to listen to whatever is going on in the van next door. Had too many previous holidays ruined by someone else's
TV/radio/children/dogs/domestic disharmony!0 -
THe comment about space and 'aire naturelles' doesn't quite add up. That equates to a density of 10 vans per acre, which is about the same as a CC site which is usually about 10 per acre.
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It is the space that is valued by us. What keeps us off Club Sites. We like a lot of space, not that hemmed in by other vans aspect that you get on all Club Sites, and a few CLs nowadays. We carry a long hook up cable, and like to use it to our advantage
where we can, that is if we hook up at all. If I am being bluntly honest, I would rather share a huge space with an extra van, than be tightly pitched next to four others. I can have that on a Club Site.Doesn't bother us in the least if a CL is adjacent to another CL, or a CS, or a commercial area, so long as we get plenty of space and don't have to listen to whatever is going on in the van next door. Had too many previous holidays ruined by someone else's
TV/radio/children/dogs/domestic disharmony!Exactly the view l have ttda.This view is based on conversations had with life long caravaners, 30, 40 and 50 years. We are now getting repeat business based on all the comments made in our reviews, and pretty much all will tell you they would choose a CL
over CS any day of the week providing they have space. I have a growing list of guests who would happily share a CL with 5 -6 other outfits providing they have the wonderful assets of peace, tranquility and space. EV0 -
It is the space that is valued by us. What keeps us off Club Sites. We like a lot of space, not that hemmed in by other vans aspect that you get on all Club Sites, and a few CLs nowadays. We carry a long hook up cable, and like to use it to our advantage
where we can, that is if we hook up at all. If I am being bluntly honest, I would rather share a huge space with an extra van, than be tightly pitched next to four others. I can have that on a Club Site.Doesn't bother us in the least if a CL is adjacent to another CL, or a CS, or a commercial area, so long as we get plenty of space and don't have to listen to whatever is going on in the van next door. Had too many previous holidays ruined by someone else's
TV/radio/children/dogs/domestic disharmony!Exactly the view l have ttda.This view is based on conversations had with life long caravaners, 30, 40 and 50 years. We are now getting repeat business based on all the comments made in our reviews, and pretty much all will tell you they would choose a CL
over CS any day of the week providing they have space. I have a growing list of guests who would happily share a CL with 5 -6 other outfits providing they have the wonderful assets of peace, tranquility and space. EVAgree entirely but, if there is a toilet block and shower on a CL site, I don't expect to share this one facility with the site next door. I can also live with an extra van or two if space is available, but not happy to share facilities with a van loaded
field over the seperation hedge.0 -
That's when the issues start Dave. Agree with you, even though we tend to use our onboard facilities most of time. We spent years happily touring on a large 30 pitch private site that only had a couple of loos and showers for each sex, you just queued, and
got on with it! But then like everyone else, we became spoilt by sites with big plush facility blocks. Now we have decided that we enjoy the peace and quiet over the need for 5 minute shower, and use our onboard facilities. We have found some great compromise
sites that we use in Winter, small private ones with a heated loo block but prices are cheaper than in Summer.0 -
THe comment about space and 'aire naturelles' doesn't quite add up. That equates to a density of 10 vans per acre, which is about the same as a CC site which is usually about 10 per acre.
Sadly I cannot post photos on here CY, or I could show you pictures of some of places we have discovered. Reviews and pictures for some are on Caravanchat though, and show the kind of space on some that is priceless to us! We had around 2.5 acres to ourselves
last August in North Norfolk, complete with a shower and loo and dishwashing area, all for £11! Bliss!0 -
And Wyatts Covert Club Site seemed to me a lot more cramped than ten pitches to an acre.
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Part of it is the size of the outfits, huge and then a double huge awning! Our little van is only 13 feet, we look well out of place, as must you ET with your Eriba!
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THe comment about space and 'aire naturelles' doesn't quite add up. That equates to a density of 10 vans per acre, which is about the same as a CC site which is usually about 10 per acre.
Sadly I cannot post photos on here CY, or I could show you pictures of some of places we have discovered. Reviews and pictures for some are on Caravanchat though, and show the kind of space on some that is priceless to us! We had around 2.5 acres to ourselves last August in North Norfolk, complete with a shower and loo and dishwashing area, all for £11! Bliss!
You have some very nice photos "over there" TDA which I have enjoyed looking at.
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It is the space that is valued by us. What keeps us off Club Sites. We like a lot of space, not that hemmed in by other vans aspect that you get on all Club Sites, and a few CLs nowadays. We carry a long hook up cable, and like to use it to our advantage
where we can, that is if we hook up at all. If I am being bluntly honest, I would rather share a huge space with an extra van, than be tightly pitched next to four others. I can have that on a Club Site.Doesn't bother us in the least if a CL is adjacent to another CL, or a CS, or a commercial area, so long as we get plenty of space and don't have to listen to whatever is going on in the van next door. Had too many previous holidays ruined by someone else's
TV/radio/children/dogs/domestic disharmony!Exactly the view l have ttda.This view is based on conversations had with life long caravaners, 30, 40 and 50 years. We are now getting repeat business based on all the comments made in our reviews, and pretty much all will tell you they would choose a CL
over CS any day of the week providing they have space. I have a growing list of guests who would happily share a CL with 5 -6 other outfits providing they have the wonderful assets of peace, tranquility and space. EVAgree entirely but, if there is a toilet block and shower on a CL site, I don't expect to share this one facility with the site next door. I can also live with an extra van or two if space is available, but not happy to share facilities with a van loaded
field over the seperation hedge.No toilet or showers. No need, you all have those. EV
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See you tomorrow DD. How many nights will you be with us for? EV
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THe comment about space and 'aire naturelles' doesn't quite add up. That equates to a density of 10 vans per acre, which is about the same as a CC site which is usually about 10 per acre.
Write your comments here...you may be right CY but my suspicion is that the CC quote the total area of the site which would include non-pitching areas such as play areas, car park, reception, roadways and woodland. CLs don't usually have these sorts of areas
so, in the main, the quoted area is the pitching area.0 -
It does come down to space in the end. If I was reviewing the legislation I would move from the numerical limit to one based on number of outfits per unit area. Perhaps four or five per acre, with no requirement for them to be adjacent.
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When we first joined the Caravan Club we stayed on several club sites as we thought this was best until we discovered what a wonderful choice of C.L's there were, we have a favourite but have also visited many many more and will continue to do so, what more
can you want other than great locations, reasonable rates and peace and quiet, if this is not for you and you want more facilities then maybe club sites are for you.0 -
It does come down to space in the end. If I was reviewing the legislation I would move from the numerical limit to one based on number of outfits per unit area. Perhaps four or five per acre, with no requirement for them to be adjacent.
There are approximately 4046 square meters per acre. So let's say your CL is 80 X 50 M. Allow a pitch 12M square per unit. Most want a pitch around the boundary hedge or fence. How many can you comfodrably accommodat? If the guide lines were altered to this
a farer and more viable standard could be achieve. EV0 -
Based on your projected numbers and allowing for an entrance, you could get 13 vans which is a higher density than most CC sites. It also presupposes that CLs have neat rectangles without any impediments such as trees/bushes. This is seldom the case.
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Yesterday had a positive response from the Club CL inspectors re. a site that had double the units it should have. Apparently they did check and the site was again oversubscribed and they are to discuss the situation with the owner. So does this mean the
owner will:(a) revert to 5 vans or
(b) go independant and we'll loose another Cl from the network?
We love Cls and don't want the latter but don't want the serenity of most Cls spoiled either!
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Please, please, please don't go down the clinical route of measuring absolutely everything on CLs! Yes, maintain the safety requirements, but try not to destroy the naturalness and beauty of most of the little sites, that is their very appeal. Club Sites
cater wonderfully for those with a straight line, mathematical fetish, even providing little colour coded sticks for those who love such details, but heaven is a little patch of grass, a few trees and shrubs, and the wonderful wildlife.
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