Increase size of CLs?
Comments
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I have followed this thread with interest, as due to the rising cost of club sites, I now use CL's almost exclusively.
I too prefer the more rural atmosphere and the informality and freedom of pitching that the CL allows.
For that reason I react with horror at some previous post which call for hardstandings etc. They would change completely the informality which to many are the real attraction of CL's.
But, the cold hard facts are that the numbers of CL's are reducing, and we have to ask ourselves why?
I have asked several CL owners what the problem is, and they have all said that the limit of 5 vans does not provide a decent return on their investment.
Many members I know - much prefer the basic approach and only want somwhere to get water, and somewhere to empty the toilet cassette. But today, the vast majority expect an EHU to be provided, and if possible a tap to each pitch. Now all that costs money, a significant financial investment. However mitigating against that significant investment, is the reality that the season is short, and that for the larger part of the year the site will be empty or nearly so. The facts are that, any return on investment will only come between May and September. However the limit of five vans does not provide the necessary income to cover their costs during that short season.
They understand that the attraction of CL's lies very much in the limited numbers involved, and they are not asking to change that entirely, but an increase from five to eight, or at the absolute maximum to ten, might provide that the vital profit and loss balance does not remain in the red.
The resultant increase in income during that period, might reduce the numbers of CL's leaving the network.
TF
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The rubble is not a waste in these circumstances, it is recycled aggregate. It's not being tipped so no licence is required.
Builders rubble is not recycled aggregate, that aside my point is its still a potentially expensive exercise depending on where the nearest suitable power is located by the time you buy the hook up boxes etc
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TF, some CL's have eight or more crammed in now. If you increase the limit to eight or ten then the base line increases proportionally, when you get into the mid teens you may as well go to a small non facility site.
A lot of CL closures may be due to the CL leaving the network and going commercial.
CL'S know the rules before opening, as such they should surely abide by them....
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The rubble is not a waste in these circumstances, it is recycled aggregate. It's not being tipped so no licence is required.
Builders rubble is not recycled aggregate, that aside my point is its still a potentially expensive exercise depending on where the nearest suitable power is located by the time you buy the hook up boxes etc
Once processed, which may be little more than sorting, it is no longer a waste. If it is being used in this way to substitute for primary aggregate it is not a waste.
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More and more people are asking for hardstandings on all sites(m/vans?) As some drivers do not seem to cope as well on soft ground maybe? or some do not like the idea of possibly having grass walked into there vehicles , And then how .can we run we run all
our electric gizmos without Ehu and also some cls are now getting to expensive , over £10 Inc ,it I think it would need an amendment to the act of parliament to enable an increase in the legal capacity0 -
Do as a lot of CL's do if they have the room/space, put a fence between the 5 van CL and make the other side of the fence a commercial site. Just been on one that had 5 vans in one part and over the hedge was another 8, plenty of space but all used the same facilities
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we love small CLs, the five van limit is very much part of the attaction....a quiet site in a quiet location?....
there is no need for owners to invest heavily in the site infrastructure, other than to ensure the site is reasonably level and drains well...this will allow vans and MH to,use the site for as long as the owners wishes...
staying for a few days requires no electrickery, just a reasonable battery to run lights, water pump tv etc...
most vans are designed to support their occupants in terms of cooking, washing up, showering etc, so the site doesnt need to provide these things...
even EHU is not a necessity, and many who like to stay on this type of site are happy to invest a little in allowing them to enjoy..
once you put in ehu....then a toilet.....then a shower....the site is being moved away from the ethos of the traditional CL...
there are many other type of sites that provide various levels of services (ehu, toilets, showers, etc....) and prices will reflect these...
to keep costs down for owners, and prices down for customers) a basic well drained and maintained grass site should suffice.
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I have noted the comments of those that followed my post earlier, and whilst I understand and have sympathy with many of them they are failing to recognise that there is a problem.
Too many CL's are closing, and unless something is done to address the problem we may have a much reduced stock soon.
I am sure that Captain Smith in his brand new liner, thought that a few Icebergs were not going to cause him a problem either. Just keep going as it is, everything is fine!
TF
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That's your view, BB, but don't forget that what suits you and what 'should suffice' is not everyone's cup of tea. One size does not fit all and the ethos, as you call it, of the basic CL is not enjoyed by all.
My ideal would be HS and EHU which proves there is a need for different types of CL so let's celebrate the differences, eh?
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It occurs to me that farming CL owners may get more from regular E.U. grants for the land as part of 'Set aside' or 'Eco meadow' or whatever than forfeit the grant for an unpredictable income from using the land as a CL. That may change when the E.U. grants dry up int wo years time.
As an aside, a couple of years ago I sold my sailing boat to a 'Hedgerow Inspector' (nice work if you can get it) funded by the E.U. who worked on Exmoor. Farmers/landowners received an E.U. grant, subsidy or annual payment for putting in new, or maintaining existing hedges, leaving the land idle.
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It is always disappointing to see the number of CL closures, month by month - didn't there used to be some code attached indicating the reason why they were closing? It's rather more difficult to tell these days, but my guess ( and it may be entirely wrong) is that it's the very basic "space in a field" type sites that are more likely to be closing. As more and more folk look for CLs as a more economical alternative to full facility sites. I know that for us, unless it's simply an overnight stop, EHU and a toilet are the first things we look for (after dogs accepted, of course!)
Returning to the OP, we choose CLs because of the 5 van rule, occasionally we've been on a CL with 6 or 7 for a night but wouldn't want that to become the norm.
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undoubtedly, TW....
my view was not only a personal one, but one that hinted at why so many CLs are becoming less financially viable, as mentioned in the OP.
more vans might help....but more (and more expensive) infrastructure will only drive owners' costs up, and the way to get that back is to continue to charge more....
every month we see many CLs closing, and ill wager many of them cant be bothered at their current profit level...
so what do they do.....add more 'features' to attract more punters.....ah, only five vans allowed, so ramp up prices, which then becomes a difficult call for those used to small (simple) sites with small prices.
so, next step up the ladder is to take on more vans to recoup that outlay....and so on....
my own view (perhaps not yours) is that there is very much a market for simple sites with less, rather than more.
you only have to witness the success of the CCC THS program (where you get a pitch, water and waste points, usuually in a field.....at around £8 a night..) to see that the demand is still there.....
many CL users will have a price 'ceiling' in mind, and if extra (not required) facilities drives prices upwards, these folk will go elsewhere...
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Thanks for the words of elaboration, BB.
You no doubt didn't intend it to be so but your earlier post created the impression that basic sites suit you so, therefore, should be enough for anyone and everyone. I'm glad you accept there is room for all.
As for the provision of services eventually leading to closure as you describe, I'm more inclined to agree with Moulesy that it's the absolutely basic sites that are more likely to close. However, we both speculate and cannot know for sure.
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The rubble is not a waste in these circumstances, it is recycled aggregate. It's not being tipped so no licence is required.
Builders rubble is not recycled aggregate, that aside my point is its still a potentially expensive exercise depending on where the nearest suitable power is located by the time you buy the hook up boxes etc
Once processed, which may be little more than sorting, it is no longer a waste. If it is being used in this way to substitute for primary aggregate it is not a waste.
Once processed it may not be waste but that is meant to be done at an approved facility. That aside, the cost of putting a power supply in can be very high if there is no suitable connection close to the CL. Western Power charge in the region of £600+ to
just bring a supply down a pole. You then have to buy a consumer unit, hook up boxes, buy armoured cable, hire a digger install it and pay an electrician to connect, test and certify it!Even putting water into a site can be expensive if you have cross a concrete path or driveway etc.
You may have done it on the cheap but depending on the CL location etc it is not always possible
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[quote] Once processed it may not be waste but that is meant to be done at an approved facility [/quote]
Skip firms have licences and operate from approved, permitted facilities. All loads are ticketed and must be made available for inspection. Sometimes this type of inert material may be charged for, sometimes not but it will still appear on the waste operators balance sheet of loads in and out
This is one stick that can't be used to beat a CL owner
I won't comment about the power issue as I'm not an electrician
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CLs in fields were designed for caravan owners who wanted truly rural locations - they had cars and could drive out and about. Motor home owners tell me they want hard standings and locations more immediately accessible to shopping facilities or to public transport. And so the switch to motor homes is hitting rural CLs.
It's even more acute in France where an amazing network of town centre and village centre Aires has grown up - providing exactly what motor home owners want - and so small rural campsites there too are struggling and closing. It's the switch to motor home ownership which is the cause of the decline of simple rural CL sites here in UK as well as tradional small sites over there.
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Once processed it may not be waste but that is meant to be done at an approved facility
Skip firms have licences and operate from approved, permitted facilities. All loads are ticketed and must be made available for inspection. Sometimes this type of inert material may be charged for, sometimes not but it will still appear on the waste
operators balance sheet of loads in and outThis is one stick that can't be used to beat a CL owner
My point is that it "can" still be a very large investment for little return depending on the CL location and the location of the services near the site.
Its not a case of just tipping some rubble and connecting a few wires....
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As Supertractorman made the statement and already has a successful CL, Stu, I guess he has a fair idea of what's involved.
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We have used CLs on a regular basis since we joined the Club over 30 years ago. They remain the only reason for us to stay members now.
30 years ago, you got fabulous locations, mainly as an add on to another business, such as farming, small holding, or the CL belonged to someone with a large property, probably with an interest in caravanning, and looking to earn a little extra income. They
were predominantly grass, had the basics of water and waste provision, perhaps a nice little information point. Down the years, as vans have changed, EHU points have gone in, usually done using all the multitude of equipment and know how that farmers and folks
of yesteryear seemed to possess! With the required checks signed off by an expert as safe. Brilliant, these were and are the true CLs.( I post post this then part two! Avoid time out)
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Part two
Roll down the years, add on lots of extras at some of the older CLs, such as eggs for sale, a nice dog walk, a bit of grassed area for children to play on, maybe some sort of hard standing and it keeps regular and happy visitors like us returning year after
year and spreading the word to friends and family.Now comes the rub. We long time caravanners are getting old and a tad creaky, we love our massive vans with fixed beds, we love all the gadgets and electrically dependent kit that comes with a modern van. Alongside this is the new wave of vanners, younger,
seldom gone without EHU or wifi or all the other things that make life easy. Don't perhaps want to take the care required on grass when a HS is easier. So the older CL doesn't get used as much, people look for more.Then you have the new CL owners, possibly the site is ultimately going to be the main income, once the ropes have been learned and more pitches can be applied for. They will need a quicker return on the money invested. So the prices are higher or the venture
fails.This is two reasons why CLs are opening and closing at such a rate, and how they are changing in nature so much.
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There is a major problem with closures and few new openings. The majority of users want EHU and prefrably hard standing, particularly when the season is extended at both ends. I fully understand that putting these in are expensive even for DIY. There is
sureley a debate to reconsider the 50 year old rule of 5 vans in certain circumstances, the biggest being space availability. If we Keep burying our heads in the sand the situation will only get worse, Loss/Loss for everyone.0 -
There are hundreds of small private sites catering for the EHU and HS requirement, many of them ex CL. We know, we have used four in this last year. Why don't people who are saying extend the 5 van rule use these? We found some lovely places with 10, 15,
20, 30 pitches (so not big commercial site), but we also value the 5 pitch only sites as well. It is really nice to have these tiny, unspoilt little gems.0 -
As Supertractorman made the statement and already has a successful CL, Stu, I guess he has a fair idea of what's involved.
I also have a succesful CL, I know whats involved and despite all the electrical work being done by a friend the materials costs alone (event at trade price) was significant given the return - I dont do it to make money but implying the CL owners are exadgerating
the costs is quite frankly a bit offensive!The cost of installing these facilities will vary hugely depending on how big the CL is, where the nearest services are located and if the connection is suitable under current regulations.... enough said about it now anyway.
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Stuh, bit confused about your CL. It isn't showing EHU available on the CL search? Just thought I would mention, perhaps need to contact Club to amend your entry? If someone puts in EHU required, then it will not bring yours up and you will be losing potential
customers and income, not good after spending on having EHU installed.0 -
As Supertractorman made the statement and already has a successful CL, Stu, I guess he has a fair idea of what's involved.
I also have a succesful CL, I know whats involved and despite all the electrical work being done by a friend the materials costs alone (event at trade price) was significant given the return - I dont do it to make money but implying the CL owners are exadgerating
the costs is quite frankly a bit offensive!The cost of installing these facilities will vary hugely depending on how big the CL is, where the nearest services are located and if the connection is suitable under current regulations.... enough said about it now anyway.
I don't see anything offensive, Stu. Most farmers have equipment, such as tractors and diggers, and materials, such as hard core, already to hand and may not have had to incur the expense that you have if you don't have these items. STM will have been speaking
from his own experience as you spoke from yours.0 -
takethedog along- Isthere a list of tyese sites or how do youfind them?
Hi Fisherman. You can narrow down your CL search to a certain extent using CL search. Click on Quick Links (top of page) Click CL. Brings up CL page. Click on Find a Site. This should bring up CL search page, where you can enter your preferred location,
by site name, County or Town. On this same page, if you scroll down, it gives you a list of options to tick to narrow down your search. For example, Adult Only, Dogs Accepted, Electrical Hook Up etc..... I think there are even a couple of icons for course
and game fishing! It isn't fool proof, for example you cannot choose a site that is dog free, but it does help a bit. It certainly shows up those with EHU, if (and it is a big if!) owners have kept Club up to date with additional services. Relies on owners
providing correct information, and Club updating website accurately and promptly!We always phone a CL direct to talk to owners and ask questions, as not all information can be put on website. Some CLs have really good information, others, particularly if it has been a long established CL, before the days of emails and Internet might
not have as much. These are often the real gems, quiet, cheap and off the beaten track!0 -
I have just realised that you might be talking about the small private sites I mentioned Fish, if so apologies for the above!
In that case, we use UKcampsites to search, ignoring big commercials , but looking at smaller ones. Then we Google Earth them, read reviews, if in area might even take a peek! Two we found last year: West Kyloe Farm up near Beal, Northumberland. We voted
it our place of the year. Stunning location and views, shower and loos, great for dogs. We paid £15 per night in August. Then there is Walkmill Farm near Warkworth. 10 caravan pitches, 10 tent pitches in a separate area, loos and showers, huge static caravan
that doubles as an information point, comfy lounge area and basic kitchen all spotlessly clean. You can even hire a private loo for exclusive use! That was £19 per night, again gorgeous location in loop of River Coquet.0 -
Part two
Roll down the years, add on lots of extras at some of the older CLs, such as eggs for sale, a nice dog walk, a bit of grassed area for children to play on, maybe some sort of hard standing and it keeps regular and happy visitors like us returning year after
year and spreading the word to friends and family.Now comes the rub. We long time caravanners are getting old and a tad creaky, we love our massive vans with fixed beds, we love all the gadgets and electrically dependent kit that comes with a modern van. Alongside this is the new wave of vanners, younger,
seldom gone without EHU or wifi or all the other things that make life easy. Don't perhaps want to take the care required on grass when a HS is easier. So the older CL doesn't get used as much, people look for more.Then you have the new CL owners, possibly the site is ultimately going to be the main income, once the ropes have been learned and more pitches can be applied for. They will need a quicker return on the money invested. So the prices are higher or the venture
fails.This is two reasons why CLs are opening and closing at such a rate, and how they are changing in nature so much.
...Fabulous parts one and two puts it all into perspective
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