Increase size of CLs?

I have followed this thread with interest, as due to the rising cost of club sites, I now use CL's almost exclusively. 

I too prefer the more rural atmosphere and the informality and freedom of pitching that the CL allows.

For that reason I react with horror at some previous post which call for hardstandings etc. They would change completely the informality which to many are the real attraction of CL's.

But, the cold hard facts are that the numbers of CL's are reducing, and we have to ask ourselves why?

I have asked several CL owners what the problem is, and they have all said that the limit of 5 vans does not provide a decent return on their investment.

Many members I know - much prefer the basic approach and only want somwhere to get water, and somewhere to empty the toilet cassette.  But today, the vast majority expect an EHU to be provided, and if possible a tap to each pitch.  Now all that costs money, a significant financial investment.  However mitigating against that significant investment, is the reality that the season is short, and that for the larger part of the year the site will be empty or nearly so.  The facts are that, any return on investment  will only come between May and September. However the limit of five vans does not provide the necessary income to cover their costs during that short season.

They understand that the attraction of CL's lies very much in the limited numbers involved, and they are not asking to change that entirely,  but an increase from five to eight, or at the absolute maximum to ten, might provide that the vital profit and loss balance does not remain in the red.

The resultant increase in income during that period,  might reduce the numbers of CL's leaving the network.

TF

TF, some CL's have eight or more crammed in now. If you increase the limit to eight or ten then the base line increases proportionally, when you get into the mid teens you may as well go to a small non facility site. 

A lot of CL closures may be due to the CL leaving the network and going commercial.

CL'S  know the rules before opening, as such they should surely abide by them....

More and more people are asking for hardstandings on all sites(m/vans?) As some drivers do not seem to cope as well on soft ground maybe? or some do not like the idea of possibly having grass walked into there vehicles , And then how .can we run we run all
our electric gizmos without Ehu and also some cls  are now getting to expensive ,  over £10 Inc  ,it I think it would need an amendment to the act of parliament to enable an increase in the legal capacity

we love small CLs, the five van limit is very much part of the attaction....a quiet site in a quiet location?....

there is no need for owners to invest heavily in the site infrastructure, other than to ensure the site is reasonably level and drains well...this will allow vans and MH to,use the site for as long as the owners wishes...

staying for a few days requires no electrickery, just a reasonable battery to run lights, water pump tv etc...

most vans are designed to support their occupants in terms of cooking, washing up, showering etc, so the site doesnt need to provide these things... 

even EHU is not a necessity, and many who like to stay on this type of site are happy to invest a little in allowing them to enjoy..

once you put in ehu....then a toilet.....then a shower....the site is being moved away from the ethos of the traditional CL...

there are many other type of sites that provide various levels of services (ehu, toilets, showers, etc....) and prices will reflect these...

to keep costs down for owners, and prices down for customers) a basic well drained and maintained grass site should suffice.

That's your view, BB, but don't forget that what suits you and what 'should suffice' is not everyone's cup of tea. One size does not fit all and the ethos, as you call it, of the basic CL is not enjoyed by all.

My ideal would be HS and EHU which proves there is a need for different types of CL so let's celebrate the differences, eh?

It is always disappointing to see the number of CL closures, month by month - didn't there used to be some code attached indicating the reason why they were closing? It's rather more difficult to tell these days, but my guess ( and it may be entirely wrong) is that it's the very basic "space in a field" type sites that are more likely to be closing. As more and more folk look for CLs as a more economical alternative to full facility sites. I know that for us, unless it's simply an overnight stop, EHU and a toilet are the first things we look for (after dogs accepted, of course!)

Returning to the OP, we choose CLs because of the 5 van rule, occasionally we've been on a CL with 6 or 7 for a night but wouldn't want that to become the norm.

Thanks for the words of elaboration, BB.

You no doubt didn't intend it to be so but your earlier post created the impression that basic sites suit you so, therefore, should be enough for anyone and everyone. I'm glad you accept there is room for all.

As for the provision of services eventually leading to closure as you describe,  I'm more inclined to agree with Moulesy that it's the absolutely basic sites that are more likely to close. However, we both speculate and cannot know for sure.

[quote] Once processed it may not be waste but that is meant to be done at an approved facility [/quote]

Skip firms have licences and operate from approved, permitted facilities. All loads are ticketed and must be made available for inspection.  Sometimes this type of inert material may be charged for, sometimes not but it will still appear on the waste operators balance sheet of loads in and out  

This is one stick that can't be used to beat a CL owner 

I won't comment about the power issue as I'm not an electrician  

 

 Once processed it may not be waste but that is meant to be done at an approved facility

 

Skip firms have licences and operate from approved, permitted facilities. All loads are ticketed and must be made available for inspection.  Sometimes this type of inert material may be charged for, sometimes not but it will still appear on the waste
operators balance sheet of loads in and out  

This is one stick that can't be used to beat a CL owner 

 

My point is that it "can" still be a very large investment for little return depending on the CL location and the location of the services near the site.

Its not a case of just tipping some rubble and connecting a few wires....

We have used CLs on a regular basis since we joined the Club over 30 years ago. They remain the only reason for us to stay members now.

30 years ago, you got fabulous locations, mainly as an add on to another business, such as farming, small holding, or the CL belonged to someone with a large property, probably with an interest in caravanning, and looking to earn a little extra income. They
were predominantly grass, had the basics of water and waste provision, perhaps a nice little information point. Down the years, as vans have changed, EHU points have gone in, usually done using all the multitude of equipment and know how that farmers and folks
of yesteryear seemed to possess! With the required checks signed off by an expert as safe. Brilliant, these were and are the true CLs.

( I post post this then part two! Avoid time out)

There is a major problem with closures and few new openings. The majority of users want EHU and prefrably hard standing, particularly when the season is extended at both ends. I fully understand that putting these in  are expensive even for DIY. There is
sureley a debate to reconsider the 50 year old rule of 5 vans in certain circumstances, the biggest being space availability. If we Keep burying our heads in the sand the situation will only get worse, Loss/Loss for everyone.

As Supertractorman made the statement and already has a successful CL, Stu, I guess he has a fair idea of what's involved.

I also have a succesful CL, I know whats involved and despite all the electrical work being done by a friend the materials costs alone (event at trade price) was significant given the return - I dont do it to make money but implying the CL owners are exadgerating
the costs is quite frankly a bit offensive!

The cost of installing these facilities will vary hugely depending on how big the CL is, where the nearest services are located and if the connection is suitable under current regulations....  enough said about it now anyway. 

takethedog along- Isthere a list of tyese sites or how do youfind them?

takethedog along- Isthere a list of tyese sites or how do youfind them?

Hi Fisherman. You can narrow down your CL search to a certain extent using CL search. Click on Quick Links (top of page) Click CL. Brings up CL page. Click on Find a Site. This should bring up CL search page, where you can enter your preferred location,
by site name, County or Town. On this same page, if you scroll down, it gives you a list of options to tick to narrow down your search. For example, Adult Only, Dogs Accepted, Electrical Hook Up etc..... I think there are even a couple of icons for course
and game fishing! It isn't fool proof, for example you cannot choose a site that is dog free, but it does help a bit. It certainly shows up those with EHU, if (and it is a big if!) owners have kept Club up to date with additional services. Relies on owners
providing correct information, and Club updating website accurately and promptly!

We always phone a CL direct to talk to owners and ask questions, as not all information can be put on website. Some CLs have really good information, others, particularly if it has been a long established CL, before the days of emails and Internet might
not have as much. These are often the real gems, quiet, cheap and off the beaten track!

Part two

Roll down the years, add on lots of extras at some of the older CLs, such as eggs for sale, a nice dog walk, a bit of grassed area for children to play on, maybe some sort of hard standing and it keeps regular and happy visitors like us returning year after
year and spreading the word to friends and family.

Now comes the rub. We long time caravanners are getting old and a tad creaky, we love our massive vans with fixed beds, we love all the gadgets and electrically dependent kit that comes with a modern van. Alongside this is the new wave of vanners, younger,
seldom gone without EHU or wifi or all the other things that make life easy. Don't perhaps want to take the care required on grass when a HS is easier. So the older CL doesn't get used as much, people look for more.

Then you have the new CL owners, possibly the site is ultimately going to be the main income, once the ropes have been learned and more pitches can be applied for. They will need a quicker return on the money invested. So the prices are higher or the venture
fails.

This is two reasons why CLs are opening and closing at such a rate, and how they are changing in nature so much.

...Fabulous parts one and two puts it all into perspective