PHEV/EV Charging
Comments
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The way I read it (and its not at all clear) there are some chargers in the car park, and some on a couple of the service pitches, which can be pre-booked via the office.
It feels like this is a trial for the club, figuring out which model works best?
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I may be alone here but for me yes its down to my personal finances, i have been looking at changing my current diesel car to either a EV or PHEV if its cheaper over say years to buy a run a Diesel then that's the car for me, at the end of the day i am not loaded and i can`t save the planet on my own.
i do however see what Chocolate trees is saying though regarding the amount of electrical items used within a stay for some is way more than others and in that respect i think having metered hook ups on all pitches would be a fair way to go then the EV or PHEV wouldn't be an issue.
i am interested to see what the club and other sites outside the club do moving forward and they will after act soon as quoted above EV is coming so they need to get the plans sorted.
what will also be interesting is if they go done the line of dedicated charges what will the rate be charged at.
dont quote me but i think they are adding EV charge points to the Clumber Park club site which is closed at the moment.
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So your proposed change is not about being personally environmentally friendly. OK, I get that but I suggest you wait a few more years before making any decision by which time things will have moved on and a clearer view of the way ahead will be available. 👍🏻
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Planning approval for new or redeveloped sites that have parking places (not pitches) now require ev chargers to be installed. The number of chargers depends on the number of parking spaces in the car park. This explains the provision of 7kWh chargers at Cayton Village last year, and chargers at those sites under redevelopment this year at Clumber Park, Lady Margaret’s and West Ayton.
Regarding costs. 7kWh public chargers range from free (at Tesco and other retail developments) to 40p/kWh. Some hotels and restaurants also provide free charges for their residents and customers. I’ve been trying to find out how much the 7kWh charges are on Club sites, but no luck. Has anyone used the ones at Cayton or New Forest and how much are they please?
To put a 50% charge in a typical ev with a 60kW battery will cost between free and £12 at a public charger and take around 4hrs. On a club site using the 13 amp socket in your van will take around 15 hrs and during that time you will only be able to use 1kW for other appliances. A 2kW kettle or 2kW heater will trip the EHU. Not very practical, so you’ll end up paying £9 to half charge your ev, but have to use your gas (heaven forbid) to keep warm and make a cuppa. The Clubs environmental credentials are questionable at best.
The other point I would make is this. Included in the cost of a pitch with an EHU is an amount to cover the amount of electric used from the 15 amp supply. To charge another £9 on top of the pitch fee to use a particular piece of electrical equipment, in this case a 2.2kW battery charger, sounds like double charging for electric, which I’m sure is illegal. On some sites, in the off peak season, this more than trebles the pitch charge! In November a standard pitch with EHU at White Water park is £4:15, rising to £13:15 if you want to charge your ev or phev!!
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Just for info, our Tesla Model 3 will add 10 miles of range per hour when charging via a 13amp domestic socket. Assuming one £9 charge lasted from 6pm until 8am then we would add 140 miles of range. The same distance in a diesel car might cost £20 - £25 so £9 seems fair. We tow an Eriba with no heavy load items on the normal electric supply but free EV charging is a very emotive subject at the moment and I wouldn't expect ICE drivers to subsidise my charging.
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As has been mentioned before the charge rate has gone up from £2 to £9. That is 450%.
Totally unjustifiable!!
I am in the process of buying a Skoda Superb PHEV which has a battery size of 13Kwh. I will get an pure electric range of 30 (if I am lucky) from a full battery.
It will charge in 5 hours but if I am forced to pay £9. I would be paying 70kWh. Pretty sure this will be about the most expensive electricity in the whole of the UK.
PHEV cars have smaller batteries and so should pay for how much electricity they NOT a standard rate.
An electric car owner could easier charge from 6pm to 10am next morning and get a healthy increase in charge of 37Kwh (about 2.3kWh per hour standard three pin plug rate) which equals to an increase range of about 100 miles. A reasonable excharge for some.
The club should be working head over heels to support members to move to electric power whether that is fully electric or hybrid. This unfair charge is doing the opposite. Please can all PHEV club members write/email with the aim to force them to reconsider this decision which so so unfair to us.
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Totally agree. I posted similar earlier the discussion. I've filled in the complaint form on the website. Got a fairly standard reply. More people that do it the better though. It's a bad policy, unfair and shows their lack of understanding of phevs and evs.
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Hybrids will be phased out along with ICE cars. They offer little environmental benefit with considerable additional complexity so I am not sure why the Club should go out of its way to differentiate between EV and PHEV charging. After all, the range when towing is minimal; the main benefit is for short local trips where battery use can be maximised.
£9 for 30 mile range is about the same cost as diesel.
Can we expect wardens to be able to spot the difference between an EV and a PHEV if the pricing was different?
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I got a reply from the club. It seems the change was mainly down to complexity of implementation for the wardens. They can’t determine what is an EV and what is a PHEV. Apparently some members were abusing the system, either declaring a PHEV over an EV or not declaring at all.
The club admitted this is a stop gap, and are looking at longer term solutions including dedicated on site chargers and per pitch meters.They have not yet commented on the applicability of the MRP and what that might mean from a legal perspective. I am waiting to hear from Ofgem.
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When it was mentioned about members abusing the system when it was suggested that EHU should be optional if needed ,it was suggested by some that all members would be honest and not abuse the system I think the reply from EGH shows a different. story
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I am sorry but the answer to this is an easy one YES the wardens can tell the difference between them all ice cars including self charging hybrids known as FHEV`s have one filler cap for fuel only, all plug in hybrids known as PHEV`s have two filler caps one for fuel and one for the charging cable, and all full EV cars have one filler cap which is for the charging cable,
so someone trying to claim there EV is a PHEV would stand out a mile as it would have two filler caps and not to mention the exhaust pipe sticking out the back
it seems to me that the club have made the decision based on what’s easier for them and rather than have two options which would mean the wardens having to check peoples honesty they have gone with one option of a single charge cost for both EV and PHEV meaning they don’t after check and most of us must be dishonest.
while we are the dishonest label a recent visit i made on one club site was shocking when i saw two separate visitors not staying on site visiting a motor home in full EV cars and charging from the unused hookup points I wonder if they paid £9
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Thanks for the update, CT. The club told us at the start when EV/PHEV charging arrangements were introduced that it was a stop gap measure but I can't help thinking they're being a bit slow in getting to grips with the situation.
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Thanks for the update. Its helpful.
Its pretty easy to tell a PHEV from a EV or a fossil fuel car. Just look round the car at the fuel filler points. A PHEV will have two - a fossil filler and an electric filler. Surely thats an easy check without staff having to know car models or ask for V5 docs etc.
Who did you write to at the Club?
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I totally agree with you and winni that the inability to determine PHEV from EV is a cop out, and further the idea that this policy will allow a simpler enforcement is pretty dumb. Indeed, the punitive costs for the PHEV user is more likely to result in abuse, rather than a willingness to pay.
The reply came from Member & Guest Relations Coordinator, Site Operations.
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In theory yes, but it's not mandatory at all to have the green stripe, and it too is open to abuse. I have seen PHEVs with a green stripe wrongly fitted by the dealer, and other ICE only cars with a green stripe fitted as a pointless exercise.
However - this would (in theory) be an easy tell.
I have just had this back from Ofgem.
"Apologies for the delay but this isn’t an easy scenario. I’ve drafted something and it’s under review, I hope to be able to send it your way early next week."
They (at least) are obviously taking this seriously!
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There’s nothing green on our number plate 🤷🏻♂️
The car not having a front grille is a clue but it’s not conclusive as the Polestar demonstrates.
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Received a reply from the CMC this afternoon, as regards the EV charger at Cayton site they unfortunately do no know the charging speed or charge per kWh, they have also informed they have a EV charger at Black Knowl, I was Black Knowl last week the EV charger is still out of order for the last 2 years plus ?
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This is the response I got from CMAC
Hello Michael,
Thank you for your email regarding your query on charging electric vehicles on site.
As you can appreciate not every member has an electric vehicle so we make it fair for all our members.
The electricity is paid for in kilowatt-hours, which is a measure of how much energy is drawn from the network. Amps are a measure of the rate at which the electricity is flowing, not the amount itself, so the 16A limit restricts what can be drawn at any one time.
A battery charging overnight will be drawing power at that rate all through the night during hours when a caravan not charging a car is not drawing any power. Therefore it uses more units of electricity.
The pitch fees that include electricity are calculated to include what we have calculated is an average amount of usage, which is less than is used when a car is charged.
The £9 fee we charge for those members who wish to charge an EV is worked out on the assumption a car is plugged in overnight, via your outfit, drawing a maximum of 2.3kw, which is the same regardless of the car type. The energy we are charged for in kilowatt-hours is the kilowatts multiplied by the number of hours, oother commercial charging facilities typically charge (if metering charging) at a higher unit price (typically £0.40 to £0.60p per kWh. I can assure you that this was all investigated thoroughly.
We've also introduced five level 2 electric vehicle charging stations at Cayton Village Club Campsite, in North Yorkshire and also level 2 charging spaces near reception due soon at Coniston Park Coppice Club campsite in the Lake District and Black Knowl Club Campsite in the New Forest. These will be charged for at the prevailing rate at the time.
Different vehicles with different capacity batteries (and indeed states of charge) would require different amounts of power to recharge. Ideally, we would prefer to meter and charge for the exact power used, and it remains our intention to move to that principle when the on site technology to deliver a good user experience for members is available.
At present, we have not found an available solution that does exactly what we believe members would want, especially in the rural settings of many of our sites where Wi-Fi and even broadband internet connections are not always guaranteed. However, we continue to engage with the infrastructure providers as their systems evolve, and hope to test and trial a system very soon. We are continuing to future proof our Club as hybrid and electric vehicle ownership grows, and are committed to providing the simplest and fairest way to charge vehicles on-site across our Club campsite network.
Kind Regards
Sarah-Jayne Hawkins
Email Support Team
Caravan and Motorhome Club
East Grinstead House, East Grinstead, RH19 1UA
T +44 (0)1342 318813 – Enquiries/Membership
T+44 (0) 1342 316101 – Overseas Travel
W www.camc.com
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Thanks, both, for the updates.
I suspect the club has contracted out the provision of EV charging points in the same way as AirAngel provide the wifi, and that is why they have no idea at all about charging rates and costs or whether the points are in working order.
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Thanks for posting this. Interesting.
So my phev takes about 14kw to charge, multiplied by the avg going rate for elecy at 30p per kwh equals £4.20.
Why would the club use commercial rates of 40p to 60p to calculate charging. They haven't provided any special equipment. I'm using my own granny charger.
The club is overcharging phev owners and undercharging for a full charge on a full ev.
Not fair to phev owners.
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The majority of modern PHEV have 10 - 14 kWh batteries, they hold 30% in reserve, our 13.8 kWh requires 9.8 - 10.4 kWh for a full charge, our 2020 Outlander PHEV charging speed 3.6 kWh some of the latest PHEV charging speed 7 kWh.
The commercial rate for 7 kWh chargers is between 30 to 40 pence, the figure the CMC are quoting are for fast chargers ?
We charge up using commercial chargers @ 33 pence a kWh £3.30 for a full 10 kWh charge.
Gridserve Motorway services 50 kWh EC charging rate 39 pence kWh
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I have a Hyundai Ioniq full ev with a 38kWh battery. I generally use PodPoint. Their 50kW dc chargers near me are 22p or 26p/kWh and at Tesco their 7kWh ac chargers are free.
I only do a full charge prior to a long journey. My normal charge regime is around 50% (30% to 80%) so 19kWh. Charging like this at a Club site through my outfit would equate to 50p/kWh and take 10 hrs. To get the most out of the £9 cost (10% to 100%) thats 34kWh equating to 26p/kWh and would take 17hrs, not very practical. I would like to know what the average consumption/pitch and cost per kWh the club have used to calculate the add on to the pitch fee.
Sounds like the cost of the dedicated chargers at Cayton, Coniston and Black Knowl could change daily. Anyone know who provides these chargers for the club. Let’s hope it’s not a disaster like the club Wi-Fi has been for years.0 -
Not having an non ICE car the figures and calculations above are slightly bewildering however, during a recent visit to a 300 pitch site I was told that their, commercial, unit price is near 50p/kWh which is more that most posters are mentioning.
Mind you I also visited a hotel where it’s £15 a night to charge an EV-I think it’s linked to their use of the word Boutique!
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Exactly this. The Club are not comparing them selves to the cost of commercial charging, just the cost of buying electricity as a commercial organisation. As a business, the club are not subject to the price cap which holds standard rate tariffs at around 28-30p / kWh.
However - if they are paying 40p-50p per kWh and charging 90p per kwh (10kWh battery charging 0 to 100%), then they may be breaking the MRP cap imposed by ofgem for peer to peer charging in a domestic setting.
I am still waiting for the Ofgem response.
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I just had a further response from the club on the subject of potential breach of MRP cap selling.
Hopefully more to come from both Ofgem and the Club.
Thank you for coming back to us.
We have reviewed your email and the information provided. The guidance you refer to came out post our decision on this policy so we want to take a little time to review it with our legal team and if required we will amend our approach accordingly. There is alot around how it's interpreted!
We will come back to you when we have completed this review
Thanks again for taking the time to feedback to us.
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I have just bought a PHEV , it will only do max 20 mile fully charged, it cost me 2.50 at home to charge , so why £9 ? where is the £6.50 rip off profit going , i might as well just pollute the world and use petrol , or go to the camping and caravan sites
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