PHEV/EV Charging
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Most of these ‘fuel shortages’ are caused by people saying there’s a fuel shortage on social media!
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A definite self fulfilling prophecy however, last week, in St Austell, ASDA had no fuel and Tesco no diesel on the Tuesday.
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When charging a PHEV was £2 it was just worth while. Same for £8 for an EV. £9 for an EV is acceptable given the increase in costs, £9 for a PHEV is daylight robbery. The absolute max I could put in my PHEV is 10kWh, or 90p per kWh.
For the BEV the absolute max is more likely to be governed by the charger, not the battery. 24 * (10A@230v) 2.3kW = 55kWh or about 16p per kWh assuming a full 24 hour charge (noon to noon). But realistically, it will be more like 8A from 4pm to 10am so 18 * 1.84 = 33kWh or 27p per kWh. Again - reasonable.
But roll on metered charging.
This weekend while away in an Air BnB Deal in Kent we definitely had range anxiety. We had gone down in two cars, the EV and our Kia Picanto that our children drive. They have about the same range on a full charge / tank around 220 to 240 miles. It was 150 mile one way journey and we filled both cars before we left.
In Deal we had access to a socket in the house, and 11 * 7kW public charge points within 15 mins walk of the house. There are two petrol stations in deal and two more on the outskirts of Dover. On day 3 of the holiday we headed to Dover white cliffs and the south-foreland lighthouse. On the way back, we tried all 4 fuel stations. No Petrol. I charged the EV over night on the public charger - choice of chargers. It took until Saturday to phone round and find a fuel station (north of Sandwich) that had some petrol, and we got a full tank to allow us to get home.
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@ Chocolate Trees .... and our Kia Picanto that .... . They have about the same range on a full charge / tank around 220 to 240 miles.
You'll surely get more than that. Your Picanto & my 1.0 turbo Smart both have a 35 litre tank and do similar mpg. I reckon on about 300miles per tank and still have the best part of a gallon left in the tank when I fill up. And I don't drive my Smart to get the max mpg from it.
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To be fair - thats what the GOM (Guess-o-meter) reads on tank full, but it seems to match what is used.
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We've charged our PHEV on a few sites now - trouble free via the caravan exterior 240v socket. Its really helpful to be able to do so, and yes we are careful of what else we switch on in the van whilst the car is charging so as not to overload or blow any breakers.
This new C&MC policy seems to show their lack of understanding of EVs/PHEVs and what members need.
I have no problem paying a fee for charging a PHEV or EV on site, but it needs to be proportionate and fair.
It is unfair to PHEV owners whos vehicles have a far smaller battery (say 15kW) than a full EV (say 70kW), to charge them the same rate 'per charge'.
The £9 charge takes no account of the charging time or capacity of the vehicle.
Once on site a PHEV owner is likely to want to charge each day, overnight due to the limited EV range (say 30miles) of the car. A full EV owner is less likely to do so if they have a ranges over 200miles now (not towing) allowing for plenty of day trips from site on a single charge.
Hence the PHEV owner gets charged £9 each day of his stay, whilst the EV owner could do a single long charge at the end of his stay the night before departure, yet the PHEV will likely not used any more electricity than the full EV, its just taken its charge in smaller daily doses, but gets charged multiple times. How is this fair?
I understand it would be difficult to implement a metering system on site and will take time to install dedicated EV chargers. I also understand C&MC want to introduce a simple system for staff and members to understand. But charging in this way is unfair to PHEV owners.
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Totally agree TT. That's exactly what we did with our BEV on our last club site (Borrowdale) trip. Charged on site the day we arrived, and the night before the day we left. Everything else was a top up from a rapid in Keswick.
Previously when towing with the PHEV, we would charge the car overnight every night via the van, both on CLs and Clubsites (and pay the owner for the extra electricity used).
£9 for an EV is fair and justified.
£9 for a PHEV is nuts.
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£9 for an EV is fair and justified.
£9 for a PHEV is nuts.
I have neither, but one could take the view that as it’s £9 for something you must have, as opposed to £9 for something you would like but don’t need, then it’s not unreasonable.
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The law in England and Wales regarding the resale of electricity is clear and simple. In my opinion CAMC was not breaking that law whilst they allowed members to charge their vehicles through their vans at no extra charge. Clearly though that is unfair on others and could be costly to CAMC. However, charging a unquantified extra price for an unquantified amount of electricity, even if it is "through" the van is in my opinion quite possibly illegal. No matter how it is dressed up they may be over or under charging for the power supplied. It is a situation that needs to be tested.
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So there are very specific rules associated with reselling electricity for EV charging. I looked into this a couple of years back to see the implications for (what was then) the new charges for PHEV and EV charging on club sites, and it was OK.
However - Ofgem published new guidelines last month (9/3/22).
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/taking-charge-selling-electricity-electric-vehicle-drivers
It seems to me that the Caravan Club are operating as a "peer to peer" relationship with the site user. Scenario 6, section 70-78, Page 22-23.
Section 77 is of very particular interest. Specifically - "But, if they use a standard plug and socket (in a domestic setting), it does apply. The MRP stops a reseller charging more for the electricity than they paid for it from their supplier."
This implies that the new charges for both EV and PHEV would be subject to the MRP cap. The EV _may_ be ok, if the user has sufficient time to charge. The PHEV user, almost certainly wont be ok, as the battery is simply not big enough to justify a price.
A letter to the club is in order...
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I have been charging my Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV on CC sites for the last 3 year using the trickle charger overnight, without any problems. Now to be charged £9 is extorsion, considering it only amounts to 98p at home to charge it up after 12pm. My argument is that there is ever increasing use of electrical devises used by caravaners, halogen heaters, electric bikes, mobility scooters, electric grills/BBQ why are they then not charged anything for excess use.
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I have written to both the Club and Ofgem on this for clarification.
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Hi, I can see why the site owner I spoke to said he will no longer allow charging, via the van/MH, of EVs.
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We have a Mitsubishi PHEV and last year charged it on site for £2 a go which seemed fair to me. To charge £9 for what is really about 20 miles seems very unfair when an EV would cost £9 to go many, many miles further.
In reality it will mean that we do not use the electric whilst away and will use very un-eco friendly petrol instead. When away last year we hardly used any petrol once we arrived at our site so our emissions were very, very low. That will not be the case if the Club stick to this unfair system.
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Consequently, the host is either acting only as a reseller of electricity or a reseller and seller of electricity. As the reselling takes place on the host’s property (or at their roadside chargepoint) they’re not supplying (licensed or exempt). If the host uses a dedicated EV chargepoint then the Maximum Resale Price (MRP) doesn’t apply.
As I read it maybe it’s this para that applies as “they” seems to be the club, the host, is not using a plug, you are from your outfit which is available to no one else,and maybe that makes it dedicated??
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Yes, this needs explaining!
I would also point that users have to reduce the supply to their vans which is included in the pitch fee but not stated. I have read Choc Trees previous experience in towing with an EV and I seem to recall that the van supply was reduced to 8amps whilst charging.
I too would love to know how CAMC came to this decision and costing.
I don't have much time for anyone who objects, we should be encouraging the use of non-polluting vehicles and discouraging EHU wastage.
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The idea of a dedicated point is set out in para 25. They mean an EV charger, as opposed to a 3 pin plug. I suppose the point being a 3 pin plug can be used for anything, but a dedicated EV charger (with a type 2 socket or lead) can only be used to charge a car. It removes ambiguity of resale for purposes other than car charging.
In 2014 we clarified that the MRP doesn’t apply to the reselling of electricity from dedicated EV charging infrastructure in domestic settings, but remains in effect if a standard plug and socket are used.
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It must be a real problem for the Club trying to plan for what is coming down the line. I can envisage what will be required on each pitch is a 16 amp metered supply and an EV charge point. On the former point, members with PHEVs are now suffering from the Club's inaction and the latter will require a whole new infrastructure and is probably impossible, certainly in the near future..
Providing a couple of EV charge points on site will only be a stop gap solution.
peedee
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I was thinking the same thing last night whilst reading all the various comments.
i don't see where there is going to be a huge influx of people buying EV cars until after the 2030 date most i have spoke to are aiming to buy new diesel cars just before production ends. So why can`t each site look to say upgrade 10 or so pitches with a dedicated charge point so EV and PHEV can book these dedicated pitches these can be charge point could be metered so they pay for what they actually use and not on an assumption of what they will use. These can be then upgraded to other pitches as the demand increases.
The only other issue i see for the coming years is do the sites have enough power coming in to cope with the much larger requirements this may also need to be upgraded at a huge cost i would think which will need to be passed onto the customer as always and then all of a sudden i am left thinking that in a few more years owning an EV will be no cheaper than owning a Diesel.
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i largely agree with you Winni1974 but I think the take up of electric vehicles is on the rise. The last year has seen reecord sales but probably not for towing just yet but it is coming. Difficult to say where costs will go, the Government has yet to decide how it will make up for the loss in taxes received from buying and using ICE vehicles.
peedee
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This doesn't mitigate the CAMC's lack of planning and thought on the subject but other holiday providers are having problems with decision making too. I looked at Haven and they are asking people not to charge on the present systems and have made little provision to help.
Although it's very rare at the moment to see a full EV on site there are a lot of plug in hybrids around and the £9 surcharge is excessive.
I've noted that many CL owners ask site users not to charge cars.
There is a mixture of rising costs, lack of provision and forward thinking in these cases.
Due to the difficult world situation regarding energy provision we're at an unknown stage in undestanding how things will work out but it looks like electricity will be the main power provider in the UK. So whatever happens, if leisure vanning continues it will probably be mostly dependent on electricity. At present electrical supplies are supplemented by some usage of gas but I think this will probably change.
I don't envy CAMC sorting this one out but they could start by encouraging EV use and discouraging wastage and pollution.
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As per PeeDees comment, I think a couple of paid for chargers (at market rate) on the each site would be a very welcome stop-gap. This would allow a used of the point to pay for what they receive, nothing more or less, at a price that is open and justified. Now you can choose to pay £4 for 10kWh at 40ppkWh for a PHEV (for example), or £20 for 50kWh for an EV.
I don't think any EV driver is trying to obtain their charge for free - just to pay an appropriate rate for the service being offered. As per alanandjean's perfectly sensible comment, if you need something, you tend to pay for it (and may pay more) than if its just a nice to have. What is frustrating about the CMC stance, is that a PHEV may use far less electricity than for example an electric heater used in an awning for a day, which is frowned upon but free.
Long term - metered pitches may be the right way to go for the club, just to make us members aware of the energy we are consuming.
I quite like winni's idea of a group of pitches that have either an EV charger, or a meter on each pitch, and make these bookable just a no-hookup pitch or no-awning or super-pitch are bookable - the only downside being the restriction in choice of pitch - but the trade off may be worth it.
What is clear, is that kicking the can down the road is not a solution. 2030 is coming and the whole of the UK (the club included) need to come to terms with electric vehicles being the norm.
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"....i am left thinking that in a few more years owning an EV will be no cheaper than owning a Diesel."
But surely the switch from ICE to electric isn't about personal financial cost? It's about far bigger issues than a few quid. However, anyone who doesn't see taxes being raised to match those in place now for ICE vehicles is rather naive.
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Sticking to the point in question. I found the latest information about charging on sites HERE with details of the few sites which have charging provision.
I see the Cayton ones are on dedicated service pitches, so are there any public ones for general use?
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