Covid Madness -
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Do you have any actual evidence that it is spreading in supermarkets? It's fine to have an opinion/theory that it might be spreading in supermarkets is that actually fact? If it were I would suggest that there would be a far higher incidence of supermarket workers coming down with COVID. As yet I have seen no statistics on that score. Not suggesting it doesn't happen but as I say not seen any documentation. If people are wearing face coverings then the risk is mitigated to a fairly large degree. Unfortunately not everyone has been fortunate enough to get supermarket deliveries and many, I am sure, prefer to shop in person. Throughout lockdown and after it ended millions of people have shopped in person in supermarkets. I have not seen any evidence that this has led to an increase in infections.
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Regarding the earlier exchange about schools, I suspect that very shortly (certainly before the intended end of lockdown 2.0) the scientific "advice" will have "changed" to allow the government to save face and, at least partially, close secondary schools. The latest ONS report states -
"There has been growth in all age groups over the past two weeks; older teenagers and young adults continue to have the highest current rates while rates appear to be steeply increasing among secondary school children."
It will also then allow them to justify a u-turn on cancelling exams next year.
This should, IMHO, have already been taken into account but if this government have been consistent in one thing it's a pig headed obstinacy to plough on with failing ideas until forced to change tack.
Would any other leadership have performed better? We shall never know, but perhaps in this, as in the other major challenge the country is facing, maybe a bit more humility and willingness to work with and share ideas with all other parties (not just political) might just have made a difference.
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No evidence, just my belief. My argument is that if people are advocating that everyone should be self isolating, then they should not be shopping at supermarkets. It is so easy and simple according to some to self isolate, whereas in practice it is much more difficult.
Edit. In reply to DK's post.
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There are plenty of theoretical simulations online to show that it may. One also needs to accept that certain information is not readily shared with the general public. Imagine the effect on the businesses if it was said officially they were unsafe places. They could not keep up with the added demand for online deliveries and the shops themselves would be in trouble. If you think about it by their very nature they are excellent circulators of cooled air in an enclosed space. Ideal for the spread of coronaviruses as we have seen in meat processing plant.
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It seems strange to me that supermarket shopping for groceries appears to be safe according to some people, and yet shopping for other non essential items is spreading the virus according to the scientists/government. Still no evidence, but I doubt the government would stop it if they didn't think it was so.
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It's my belief that we are no more at risk shopping in a supermarket than going anywhere else where we briefly come into contact with others. AD has explained why.
People who are self isolating, eg because they are potentially infected, obviously should not be going to the shops or anywhere else but they are not the general population.
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I'm not sure it's shopping for non essential items itself which the scientists/government say is spreading the virus is it? The point about closing non essential shops is to reduce the number of folk out and about unnecessarily.
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You agree with me that we are no more at risk in a supermarket than other places yet you believe the virus is spreading via supermarkets and they should be avoided? Perhaps I'm confused but that seems to be a contradiction.
I don't think 'people' on this forum are calling for everyone to self isolate. As far as I can recall, it's only one person and I suspect he inadvertently used incorrect terminology.
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All I am saying is that the effect of a lockdown is to make mixing, whether in public, shops or at home as little as possible. The less people you meet the less chance there is for catching the virus. Simple really. The less people infected the less strain on the NHS, less people of every age dying and gives the scientists breathing space to try and find a vaccine. Those of us vulnerable have for a simple reason done our self isolating as much as we can. However a large minority of the population has not, just see the raves etc in the news today. Draconian action seems to be the only way forward.
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I agree with the first part of your post, Fish, but you confuse self isolating of the vulnerable or suspected infected people with the lockdown rules applicable to others.
The behaviour of some is shameful and irresponsible but I very much doubt those people are in the self isolating category.
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Its a sad fact that some folks have no option but to mix Fish. Take your average 2.2 family, both adults working, Dad and Mum are teachers, cannot work from home, little boy in junior school, little girl in infants. The potential for risk there very high even without introducing shopping, travelling, having to drop off, pick up at school gates etc....Good chance there’s probably a Grand parent or two in there doing a bit of childminding as well. We have five family members looking at this scenario alone. Could be same for any family that has emergency or care workers, anyone involved in food production and distribution, energy workers.
Retired, reasonably healthy, steady pension income, no outstanding debts, bit of a garden to poke around in, no caring commitments that’s lockdown heaven in terms of staying away from virus at moment. But away from this a huge swathe of folks are having to cope with lots of other factors that can impact hugely.
I don’t count those who wilfully cause issues, not the same thing.
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All I am saying is that the effect of a lockdown is to make mixing, whether in public, shops or at home as little as possible. The less people you meet the less chance there is for catching the virus.
But that wasn't all that you were saying, was it, Fisherman. There is, in fact, less chance of some of us who have continued to tour from mixing while away in our caravans or M/Hs, being out in the country air, than when at home in close proximity to many more people, unless of course we lock ourselves away....self isolate completely....as you seem to have been suggesting
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One of the charts shown on yesterday’s briefing appeared to indicate that cases rose around two weeks after schools went back in England. Mid September time. Then of course the Uni‘s went back. All that mixing has surely got to be a factor. Children might not catch it as easily, or be as poorly, but I suspect they don’t half carry the germs, no matter how much hand washing they do. Coughs, colds, sore throats, tummy upsets.......you name it, they incubate it.
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Reason has been tried, but the virus increases. Its an unfortunate consequence of peoples action that we face lockdown. What's the alternative just let it rip? Yes individually vanning is no problem but multiply it and it is, There can be no room anymore for anyone to find an excuse to say " its not me". Collective responsibility trumps all. I've put my thoughts forward for what they are worth. Not going into a personal debate as that is the way to get the subject locked.
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I'm not sure whether you can blame certain sections of the public when there have been warnings about rising numbers for several weeks and controls in England have been slow and sporadic. You've had a lockdown in Wales which ends on Nov 9th and the outbreak will hopefully have slowed up but the virus will stiil be there. Although I see some areas still have high numbers. "Firebreaks" only work in the long run if the fire gets tackled and put out. Just now we're still fighting a very persistent invisible fire that self ignites.
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Of course we don’t just let it rip and I think you are promoting exactly the courses the various Govts are taking. There will always be those who flout the rules and it is them you should be castigating rather than people on a caravanning forum.
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Imagine the problems if no one was allowed in the stores🤷🏻♂️, their would be riots👍🏻
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Especially as they were gathering for raves near Bristol ( 700ish ) and near Warrington ( 300+ ) on Saturday night, needing police from Liverpool , Cheshire and British Transport Police to disperse the Warrington ravers then a fair number of new tyres for the police vehicles.
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It obviously makes sense to avoid coming in contact with other people if you can. We will continue with our weekly food deliveries (assuming there are slots!) so there is often no need for us to venture out unless we have some sort of emergency which is basically the mantra we have followed since March. Even seeing our children has been at arms length. It seems so long ago that we all sat around a table for a meal. I suppose non essential retailing is a bit like non essential campsites. If they are closed it is just one more encouragement for people to stay at home.
David
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Now that would be something to celebrate, along the lines of scientists discovering Darwin’s law particularly pertains to anti maskers/Vaxers👍🏻
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