Load margins, what do you need?
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agreed, just checked the swift caravan pages to see what they have in their MIRO...just the manuals, hook up cable and 10kg for gas...no water anywhere...
...but what shocked me was that their new pride and joy, the monstrous 8' wide top of the range van with an MTPLM of almost two tons had a payload of.......wait for it......160kg.
a four berth, twin axle model, 8' wide, longer than a battleship with a payload of 'not a lot'....
just as well you need a tank to pull it and can put all your stuff in that, I guess.....
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I seem to recal that ten years ago, when I started investigating MH, pretty much all manufacturers quoted the figures I mentioned earlier.
you say there was no std at that time, yet the std may have come out of the fact that 'everyone' was using the same hymn sheet so they decided to get it 'standardised'.
however, now we actually have a 'standard' those very manufacturers that might have been part of setting it up, are now not bothering because 'they can go their own way'...
why bother to have the 'std' that the big players then choose to ignore?
it's pretty obvious why they ignore it....their vans are so heavy that to get any sort of 'respectable' payload nnumber in the brochure, they have to leave out everything that's not bolted to the floor.
this then gives the healthy (or not) figure the PR man wants to see.
of course, along comes the customer, fills it with water, gets Mrs Customer on board, loads up their usual 'stuff' and then drives away without a clue as to whether they are legal or not....certainly not if Sprog Customers are also on board.
still, the brochure had the disclaimer on page 99 in microscopic writing, so that's all right
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Geez BB I had to check, I thought the thread was-‘why I hate caravans’☹️. Mucho diatribe.
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It’s all up to the customer. If he stopped buying caravans with puny MTPLMs manufacturers would be forced to offer significant weight upgrades. But as long as customers don‘t even question the MTPLM on the sticker by the door although the actual type approved MTPLM is higher, manufacturers will continue to take advantage of the customer‘s lack of interest.
At least Continental manufactures offer upgrades usually in 100kg steps, sometimes even two or three of them. If they can there’s no reason why UK ones can’t if the demand is there.
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reading in far too 'mucho crappo' Rocky....
agreed, the OP was certainly about caravan load margins which, as these things do, overlapped into MHs....
if you'd read the above you would see that I was criticising Swift and Autotrail for their 'brevity' comcerning MH payloads...
so, hardly a caravan knocking thread......au contraire, in fact.
i merely checked the Swift caravan eqivalent for curiosity....
still, thanks for your concern
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Nope, I read your post thoroughly. Particularly the ‘manufacturers’ as opposed to just swift bit. No problem you continue. Where you are concerned B.B. I’ll always be concerned, always👍🏻
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yes, I criticised 'manufacturers' for their brevity in openly declaring what's included (or not) in their figures.....I don't think it's right to tuck something as important as this away at the bottom of a brochure, do you?
i also mentioned several foreign ones who quote MIRO with less than a full tank of water, a change from a few years ago, but usually state how much is included.
my own van has a two stage drain plug which can leave 20ltr in the tank for travelling which is whays quoted. as it happens, we have more than enough payload to travel with as much water (and everything else) as we please.
its where vans are larger or have longer overhangs that weights (including axle weights) can get critical, certainly for the poorly informed customer.
my quick trawl of Swift and AT both included no water at all.
if I've missed your subtle point, perhaps you could make it a bit clearer. thanks
...and for your continued concern...
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So reviewing this thread WRT my OP it is fair to surmise that around 150Kg for a 4 berth caravan is not sufficient and that MIRO?MRO is also insufficient both in it's allowance and inclusion of items.
Clearly this means that the formula 10L + 10N + 50, where L is the body length and N the number of berths, as laid down in BS EN 1645-1 is in reality not a valid calculation of load margin for most consumers. I suspect that the formula was not arrived at with any consultation with the end users. Surely the CMC could support members in improving this situation after all is is not brand specific, ok (pause) I'll stop there - it aint going to happen is it?
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"Surely the CMC could support members in improving this situation after all is is not brand specific, ok (pause) I'll stop there - it aint going to happen is it?"
No, you are right on that point but is within our gift to get things back to something sensible; simply walk away and spend your money on a product that is viable.
Unfortunately, the door is likely to be on the off side, but that is no big issue compared to the van being legally unusable due to inadequate payload.
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Interestingly Lunar have a very low Miro allowance of 1 gas bottle 8Kg, mains cable 6Kg and winding handle at 1Kg. No allowance for liquids at all. Anything over this comes out the load margin. I believe the standard 6Kg propane gas bottle is more like 14 Kg full, lite ones being 10Kg.
So if you were to travel with water heater full (10Kg) 2 standard full gas bottles (28Kg) a 110Ah battery (25Kg) and a motor mover at (30Kg) could be eating into the LM by 86Kg ( 92- the 8 lunar allow for gas) leaving approx 71Kg for everything else. assuming 155Kg LM
I could probably manage this with a large tow vehicle capable of taking awning water/waste carriers and other weighty items.
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Sorry if this is a stupid question but if your Microwave comes fitted in the caravan is it included in the MIRO?
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In relation to this thread, I was interested to read the review of three used caravans in the current Club magazine: 1997 Swift Corniche 13 - MTPLM 1300kg / user payload 360kg; 2014 Xplore 402 - MTPLM 1139kg / user payload 146kg. How we have been surreptitiously fooled by manufacturers' slight-of-hand over the issue of payloads and they blame the caravanner for `overloading'!
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You do need to remember that what has been included in the MIRO has changed over the years, way back then, as in our 2008 van, it was just the van as delivered, no allowance for anything, so you do need to look at what is included now.
Even so, current payloads are pathetic!
Our MIRO was 1532 kg, MTPLM we have increased from 1815 kg to 1900 kg. Payload is therefor now 368 kg.
So we have added about 10kg of extras, plus battery,maybe 20 kg ?, air con 32 kg, mover 32 kg, gas 20 kg, so we still have around 254 kg for what we want to take with us.
Even so we need to be careful when loading, and all heavy stuff goes in the car.
By packing in the van only what we use in the van, we seem to have it right, all outside stiff goes in the car, plus tools, camera, binoculars, computers, awning, levelling blocks, Alko locks, Aquaroll etc etc.
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Are you 100% sure that the MTPLM is 1139kg? I am not aware of any caravan manufacturer who has type approved his caravans with oddball weight figures. All of those that I have come across specify their type approved MTPLMs in steps of 50 or 100kg.
What does the statutory plate say?
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sorry didn't copy full table.
Anyway it is obvious why many owners are having trouble loading these days. Those who are not having any problems, please tell me the secret!
year % of MTPLM MRO Max margin Kg
1988 van = 24% 680 900 220
1993 van = 22% 855 1100 245
1999 van = 18% 1264 1558 294
2010 van = 14% 1395 1618 223
2015 van = 11% 1339 1500 161
all as standard
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Lutz, my Compass Omega 482 (Elddis) is plated (side of caravan door) at mtplm 1,318kg, the other plate in the gas locker is mtplm 1,318kg and also maximum mtplm 1,350kg, which it could be upgraded to. Payload is 124kg which does for 2 of us.
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I’m interested in your “for nothing” advice. I’ve upgraded twice and found it to be bafflingly expensive. Van manufacturers tend to insist that you apply via a dealer, who claims a mark up, in return for which you will be sent a new data plate. The manufacturer also updates their central database to reflect the revised weight. Can you share with us, how you got an upgrade for nothing, so that I, and others can follow suit?
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Natash2 is correct Lutz, my Swift is 1624 MTPLM. When I took it to a weighbridge it was 1720kg........ before food and clothes were added!! And no I don’t carry awnings or chairs in the van. However my get out of jail card is I can (and am) upgrade the MTPLM to 1800kg and still be within the max towing limit and train weight of my car.
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It seems to me that there are two conflicting issues here; safety and legality. When the same chassis is fitted to several different bodies, different gross weights are published in order to legalise the lower weight vans being towed with lower weight cars. Overloading such a van, when towed with a heavier car, wouldn’t infringe upon safety, but it would infringe on legality if the van were loaded beyond its plated weight.
A better model might be to plate the van with its empty weight and the maximum weight which the actual chassis/ suspension will support in use. If stopped routinely or for suspected overloading and weighed, then just one consideration needs to be applied - is the van too heavy for the car, by dint of the car/ van manufacturer’s specified limits or the 100% max ratio for towed trailers.
The small Vin plate max weights are arbitrary, for marketing purposes, with little engineering provenance.
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On my 2013 Elddis Avante 540 it was a free upgrade when purchased new.
This offer was taken up by the original purchaser luckily for me. I now have a max weight of 1500 kg giving me a load margin of 225 kg
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There is no requirement to plate the MIRO at all.
What do you mean by conflicting issues of safety and legality. Are you suggesting that a legal outfit is unsafe?
One cannot have two different plated gross weights. Who is to believe which one counts?
There is no legal 100% max ratio for trailers.
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