UK sites with metered electricity
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I believe installation testing is much more involved than the simple portable appliance testing (PAT). I think it varies over time with more investigative testing as the installation ages - a bit like car servicing varying from basic to major.
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Our worst next door was a brand new caravan, twin axle, on our favourite CL. They blew our bollard four times first night. Next morning I went round to see if they were alright. I asked what they were using, it was a tad chilly, so CH was on full blast, kettle was a big domestic, large TV, gadgets charging, toaster was out, and they had no gas so using only electric hot plate. The Glade Plug In caught my eye as well. They hadn’t got a clue really. CL owner was tearing her hair out, had to get electrician out to check everything. They left next day, we had no further problems. They just needed a bit of help really, but how much they took onboard I wasn’t sure. Like AD, we can happily manage easily on 6amps if we have to, and still remain, warm, comfortable, clean and entertained.
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Metered electricity is a real dilemma in the UK.
First of all, I believe the campsite can't charge a premium for electricity. You can't resell at a higher rate than cost.
Electricity in the UK is about 20p per unit whereas on the continent it's usual to pay around 50p per unit metered (double the cost).
That makes it difficult to recover installation costs in UK.
Any meter system for large sites would need to be remote readings linked to the site's invoicing system. Feasible but more up front costs.
Then I guess more would migrate to Safefill which works out about 15p per unit of energy.
Lots of stuff to consider. At the moment, personally we expect a pitch with hookup to be a few quid more and we can use it ad lib.
If metered we'll just move to gas...
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Using the large number of pitches or large number of sites as an excuse to justify doing nothing is pathetic. I read the Q&A report too, and it is a disgrace.
If the club is operating 10,000 pitches on 200 sites, the total cost will be huge - the total carbon footprint will too. The club should be transparent and publish some data so that we can all see how much electricity is being used through the year on all the sites. Then set a target for reduction and get started on it. The club should invite volunteers (people with knowledge about the subject and people with experience of these types of projects) from the membership to form a series of working groups. Many of us have worked in private industry where this type of work is common place. Doing nothing is not an option in my opinion.
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I am out of touch with Club sites but are they all equipped with solar panels on roofs now and can that be extended to other parts of the sites to generate more power?
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Not all but I've seen a number, also solar powered lights are more common.
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I can’t recall seeing any, but then our Club Site visits are very limited. Most I have seen in terms of a nod to environment is a few different recycling bins, some low level lighting and possibly movement detectors on lights in loos. Club possibly kills a tree every day with all paperwork it hands out to new arrivals. 🤨
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All good stuff - really I'm not disputing that, but where will the money come from? You might be happy with higher pitch fees (or less refurbishments or new sites) but other might stop using the club sites and go to cheaper sites
The club is a business, no money no sites. Until the club is forced to do anything that is the bottom line?
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10000 pitches at £500 per pitch meter install is a huge 5 million investment before allowing for the admin. Even with automatic readings integrated with the billing system there will be queries when someone uses the wrong socket and a final bill to settle on departure. A large transactional cost.
My view is that pitch prices are already at the limit of what members will pay. The club can't make a profit out of the metered leccie so it's a real problem.
24 hours @ 2kw is 50 units or £10. It's very hard to use even a fraction of this even heating the awning do I guess no change in the short term...
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Where do you get the £500 per meter install? Just interested as I've posted before it might be perhaps £50 to £100, but even that will be high
For us, even in the coldest of winters (where the water taps froze up) once we're warmed up we can be toasty warm on the 900W setting in the caravan with the inside temp about 20C during the day and evening and 18C for sleeping.
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As I mentioned up thread if the club went meters I'd be in favour of that, I think in some cases it would cut down on excessive use.
On one site we were on recently we got a 4 kw per day usage. At the end of our stay the meter was read and we had used exactly our allowance over a 9 day stay. During that time we had used the fridge, kettle, electric hob and tv every day. We didn't heat water or have heating on as it was hot weather.
On a CL we regularly use they have increased their price over the winter months, I don't blame them. I'm sure when they have folk staying in winter they make very little profit out of their £14 a night fee.
Something has to be done to cut down on excessive usage, be it meters or lower amps, either wouldn't bother me but I think meters would be more effective. With 10 or 6 amps folk would go out and leave the heating and hot water on. If it was metered, I think that would change.
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If we are all going to 'do a bit' to reduce power usage then solar will certainly help. Folk have it on their houses to provide their own power and then any spare can also be sold to the grid...good idea...
now, when on a campsite, I can generate my own power but the site can't let me have the pitch cheaper even if I don't want to plug in.
they could meter the pitch so that 'my charges' would be smaller than someone more profligate, but the 'investment' in managing and recording an overall reduction would push prices UP...work that one out...
Our Spanish winter site has the latest remotely metered leccy boxes...you can get a reading anytime to check levels, the cost is added to the bill when you leave...again, this can't be done with the 'normal' CC practice of paying on arrival...
this one site seems to be able to fund the cost of these meters, perhaps over a period of time, by the overall reduction in their leccy costs...if they don't, what's the point?
customers get a fairer deal, the site reduces its overheads, the planet is saved!
we always seem to highlight the cost to the club by throwing out huge numbers based on multiple sites, but surely, each site has to run its own budget (just as in my example) and relative costs then seem far lower and 'less sensational'.
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The problem is with metering, members are going to expect a reduction in site fees. I cant see these are going to be as large as folk hope. In the summer months when most holiday, electricity usage is minimal. Anything more than a £2 a night reduction would probably see the CAMC loosing money overall, as folk wouldn’t have consumed more than that.
In the winter there would clearly be more scope for reductions. Although metering could lead to increased use and therefore cost of the facilities, rather than heating water in the van on the meter, or with their gas.0 -
I think technology might come to our rescue on the subject of metering. I have used two types of metering aboard. One was were you fed coins into the electric bollard, always a risk of either running out in the middle of the night or over paying! The other type is where you are locked into the bollard and a reading is done on the morning of leaving and the bill worked out. Best not to be in a rush with this method! I am not sure I would want the Club to go down either route. However I am sure some cleaver person will invent a Smart Phone App which you log onto the bollard when you arrive and log off when you leave and any charge is debited to your chosen payment method. Perhaps rather than an App it could be a credit card type tap on bollard method. I think we would have to have that sort of technology in place before the Club went down the route of metering. Imagine the queues at reception on leaving day if they tried the old fashioned method?
David
PS how do people pay to charge an EV? All the charging stations are remote so there must be some method that could also be used on site?
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About your last paragraph, I learnt very early on that there is nothing worse (OK there probably is but you get the idea) than coming back in winter to a freezing cold caravan and having to sit with your coat on waiting for it to warm up. So yes I do leave the heating on during such times, perhaps set at 18C and the 900W setting. No doubt when I get my next caravan and it has one of these apps to switch the heating from a hour or so before getting back I would use that or if there were some other way (why don't caravans have timers) but at present there isn't.
I don't apologise for doing that and I personally don't see it as wasted heat. We would expect the same in a hotel/B&B and will do the same in our forthcoming cottage in December (unless there are timers). Also there is the point of view that one wastes more energy in letting a caravan cool down then reheat it than keeping it at an even temperature? And of course the heating isn't on all the time, the thermostat will cycle on and off.
And yes I would do the same if it was metered but the cost of running 900W (call it 1Kw) for one hour is about 20p so six hours while we're out would cost £1.20.Really not worth worrying about, a coffee/tea... anywhere will cost more than that.
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Exactly my opinion. Spanish sites can do it, so why can't ours? Inflating the imaginable cost of metering to £500 per pitch as an excuse to do nothing is just stupid. Using modern methods (like they do over there) the metered reading is permanently shown on a computer screen at the reception desk. When you check-out you settle your bill, or if you chose to, you swipe your card on checking in, it can be settled without contact at check out. Long stayers worrying about their accumulated charge can ask at reception if they wish, no problem. (We have a meter in our caravan, so we know) Ii is quite simple to include a modest amount of electricity in the pitch fee. Regarding excessive usage, we know of one Spanish site where some of their overnight motor caravan pitches were consuming 40 KWH per night, and that was the reason for introducing metered charging. The Club should go public and tell us what the average electricity consumption is on each occupied pitch / on each site seasonally, so that awareness can at least begin.
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but surely, each site has to run its own budget
Does it? maybe but do you know that for certain as you've said surely? And even if it does for running costs would each site have to pay for it's own installation then? On my last club site that would be, at a very low estimate of £50 per EHU that's about £10,000? Does a site have that sort of money in reserve? And again where would this money come from?
this one site seems to be able to fund the cost of these meters, perhaps over a period of time, by the overall reduction in their leccy costs...if they don't, what's the point?
That doesn't make sense at all, if the energy costs go down the site will pay less on those costs. You're also assuming electricity costs will go down? You pay for the electricity you use, simple as that. Before meters the site had to pay £x, after metering the site pays £y and that is the money it has to pay so their is no 'saving' to the site to fund anything?
There is also the idea that the club or site makes money currently under the present system.
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First of all not all Spanish sites do it, some have inclusive prices as well? Certainly the case for the Italian sites I've been on although there is the option not to have EHU, which I support.
But again do you ask other holiday companies such questions or just the club? Personally, and yes shame on me no doubt, I am not bothered about how much is used and don't want to know. I just want to have a holiday.
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I believe, if you look into the idea that it is more economical to leave heating on all day at a lower level than to turn it off and heat from "cold", you will find that this has been shown not to be the case. It has been discussed many time on the MSE forum for example.
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Yes, we've paid monthly....better for us and the site...and on the last month (or end of stay) we go into the office the evening before (open till 10pm) and pay then...as the usage from then till leaving next morning is deemed to be minimal, this is not included in the bill (imaging that a CC site?).
There is oft mention of 'not doing this at hotels or B&B'....the difference is that, at those establishments you have no method of generating your own power, whereas on a campsite, you can be totally self contained....water, power etc.
this is where CC sites start to look mightily expensive...you're on tour, pull in late, going next morning, hardly worth getting the hook up out as it has to be put away next morning....so, £25-£40 is way off beam, and why some would like to keep costs down by not paying for hook up....or other ways of not charging for leccy.
again, a good reason to use CL/THS sites for touring with such short stops.
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BB says “this is where CC sites start to look mightily expensive...you're on tour, pull in late, going next morning, hardly worth getting the hook up out as it has to be put away next morning....so, £25-£40 is way off beam, and why some would like to keep costs down by not paying for hook up....or other ways of not charging for leccy.”
👍
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As I said a point of view. True or not I won't be going back to a cold caravan.
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They could well be making money.....or losing money.
At the moment we do not know how much electricity is being used by those staying on sites, or the size of the bill. Does the Club itself know what is consumed via the EHUs?
Nor do we know how much of the site fee is reckoned to be needed to cover what we consume. It will obviously be more in winter than in summer is about all we can say.
So if the Club are reckoning that the average use is £2 per day in summer and £5 per day in winter but allocate £4 per day overall for this, then they may be adding more to fees than the actual cost. So a small additional "profit". The amount they have added to cover the bill may be much more per night, so possibly a bigger profit, we have no way of knowing.
But if they get it wrong, maybe weather is very cold, or more people using sites in winter than anticipated, that could easily become a small, or even large, "loss".
With metering, that uncertainty would be removed, people would pay for what they use, their payments would cover the bill and the risk of the Club losing money on this would be removed.
As others have said, for most people, metering would "concentrate the mind", and IMO lead to less power being used. As at home, that would be a decision for each of us to make.
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It is actually a scientific fact.
You need to get a van with Alde heating! Even in our 2008 model van, the Alde can be set to come on at a specified time (it is quite complicated but certainly possible), and can be started remotely via a text message as we fitted an optional extra that enables that.
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First of all not all Spanish sites do it, some have inclusive prices as well?
These are usually only applied to short stays where you pay more to pitch. Long stays are metered and the pitch price is much much cheaper.
I don't know how the meter readings are collected on the Spanish and German sites I have stayed on but what I do know is much of the technology that DK refers to above is already available and the Club already has some of the technology in place. Its called WiFi. WiFi is one of the technologies used to collect readings to be logged at a central point.
While the Club would not profit by fitting meters it would have better control of its electricity costs. It would not have to estimate customer usage.
Any improvemetns to sites has a price, a very expensive one if all done at once. A metering system could be fitted in the same way any other site upgrades take place,. gradually over time.
peedee
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