OS map Grid Refs gone!!
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As a CL owner Kim could you not contact HO and point out the folly of their ways, as this may just result in a change of mind by them, although I doubt it? All that we as customers get a the reply that I posted above.
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You're correct that there's a CL owners group, but there's not been any posting from them for a while on here. I think that they are more focused on using FB these days to get their messages across than they are with CT.
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A post code is not really the answer as it covers too large an area. You can download POI's from the Club website and those POI's will be based on the GPS position at the entrance to the CL so there shouldn't be any problem navigating to the CL if using a satellite navigation system that most do these days. If there are route difficulties getting to the CL this should be properly noted in the CL details on the website or at least relaid to members on booking.
David
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The whole thread David relates to the Sites Directory and a glaring omission that many responders on here are used to relying on. I do not feel your post has any relevance to the problem raised. It merely states what can be done using technology whereas some people still prefer paper, at least as a reliable backup to technology, which for all its advances still has faults for pinpointing exact locations.
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Sorry can't help, B2, as I'm not on the club's FB list. Perhaps Nicola at Skybarn CL, or Ian at BirchHillFarm CL could help.
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Ah, but if you read KImT's post to which I was replying to it did specifically mention using a sat nav? I was just offering advice on how that could be overcome if someone choices to use such a device.
On the point of using OS Grid References I assume that people have a whole heap of paper maps on which to check where a CL is? I seem to recall that Steve has the maps digitally on his computer. Just wondering how people use them. BTW I do understand Grid References but have not used them since orienteering many, many moons ago when I was at school.
David
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The group was mentioned in this thread
However it is a private group so only CL owners can join or view.
David
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Many CLs tell us NOT to use satnav to reach them. Searching for a suitable CL yesterday I noted several with this warning. One of the two that I eventually booked gave a very strong warning not to use satnav, only follow the instructions in the handbook. With a paper map I could have followed these easily before I even got into the car had the exact end-point, ie grid reference, been available.
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David, as regards digital maps, just like paper. As long as the relevant area has been downloaded, it is usable without the internet. The system I use allows me to download any of the UK on 1:50000 and 1:25000. The maps are available on my windows laptop, which gives most functionality, as well as pad, or phone. I think 5 devices are permitted. These days we tend to use them in electronic format, rather than print them off. Although for more hostile environments such as mountains ( getting rarer theses days ☹️) paper map back up and compass are essential. An advantage over paper is that they accept coordinates in various formats including lat and long.
JohnM20, if you are at home with internet access NG coordinates are available on the CL page. This of course does not help if you are in the middle of a field with no 3/4G and no WiFi.
Given the space requirement they really should have been included. It's not as though, except for new additions, they had to be sourced from scratch.
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Back in 2014 the OS were consulting on whether to introduce an overlay showing latitude and longitude to bring maps in line with GPS devices, did this ever happen? If it has the GPS co-ordinates are actually given in the site directory.
On the point of CL's saying not to use sat navs that is usually because people use post codes (some built in devices will only accept post codes) A GPS co-ordinate should be as accurate as any grid reference and that was my point about POI's which are based on those co-ordinates?
David
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I don't think I have bought any paper maps since 2014. The 25,000 I just looked at does have lat and long around the sides, but there is no grid across the map, so would be difficult to use with any accuracy.
As you say my built in sat nav only uses addresses and post codes, which can be way off. You can move the destination to the correct place. However, this does mean you need to know where it actually is.🤔
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showing latitude and longitude to bring maps in line with GPS devices
Both are shown along the edges of most OS maps, and there is a map symbol for the intersection points that is only omitted when it clashes with other information. It takes but a few minutes with a ruler and a pen to draw in the lines of latitude and longitude on a paper map.
However, if you do, you will find that these lines are not straight, but curves. This is because the world is shaped like a ball and not like a sheet of paper. The lines of latitude (meridians) also all get closer together the further from the equator one looks. So an angular measurement of, say, one degree close to Southampton is a different distance on the ground, or map, than the same angular measurement close to Edinburgh. What a pain to exterpolate between lines.
What we need is a reference system where the lines are always the same distance apart, say 1 kilometer. One can then use a ruler to consistently plot the part of the reference that falls between two lines wherever it might be, though regular users can become very accurate doing this by eye.
Fortunately, in Great Britain, we do have such a system. It is called the National Grid and is what is shown on Ordnance Survey maps. It is also shown at the 10 kilometer interval on the map distributed by The Caravan Club!
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Following David Klyne's helpful reply to the CL owners group I contacted Nicola at Skybarn and received the following reply
Thank you for the link to the thread on CT. The CL owners group is aware of it and a discussion was started about it last week sometime.
hopefully those who have posted here regarding this omission from the handbook may aid the discussions.
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Thanks B2, well done. Hope that the CL Owner Group has sufficient influence to get the OS Map references re-introduced in the next SD, as I can't see HO doing anything about it till then, if at all.
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Thank you everyone for your feedback which has been forwarded to the publishing team for their information. Having spoken to my colleague I can advise we always try to assess the impact of removing any data from the Handbook, but as more CLs add information like email and website addresses we have to look to cut down information in other areas to make sure that the directory stays at a manageable length for production and postage costs.
We did previously include a lot of location information, such as full address, directions, lat/long co-ordinates and OS map references so this seemed like the best place to cut down the entries. Similarly with the Club Site pages, we’ve been asked repeatedly to include more information such as local supermarkets and whether they are accessible to motorhomes, and more information about the local area. While we know that paper maps are still quite widely used, the co-ordinates can be used across more functions, such as online mapping tools and sat nav, so we made the decision to remove the OS map references instead.
We apologise for any disappointment this has caused members. The editor of the Sites Directory and Handbook will keep a close eye on the level of complaints regarding this, and will look to reinstate them for the next edition of the Sites Directory if there has been a significant proportion of members inconvenienced by this.
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While we know that paper maps are still quite widely used, the co-ordinates can be used across more functions, such as online mapping tools and sat nav, so we made the decision to remove the OS map references instead.
On line mapping tools also accept NG coordinates. As to Sat Navs, many only take post codes, which can be way off the mark. The one in my car will dump you in the middle of the post code and let you move the destination marker to the exact location. If going to a CAMC site the entrance is usually fairly obvious and can be checked on street view, the marker can therefore be moved with certainty. In the case of more remote locations, the same cannot always be said. Therefore anyone who relies on paper maps is at a distinct disadvantage. The amount of space NG Coordinates take up is minimal and cannot really be compared to the space required for supermarket information. In many cases there is enough space left on the last line of the entry, so no extra page length required, just a bit of ink.
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Sounds like we're being given the big elbow. Like you B2 I wonder what HO consider to be "a significant proportion of members inconvenienced by this". There will be very many members who do not take part in CT who are and will not know of Ro's statement above, and who have not made their feeling known.
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Thank you Rowena for your imput and the last paragraph in your statement.
I have mailed the Club mag Letters Editor regarding those members who would like to see the Grid Refs re-instated to make their feelings known to the Handbook Editor.
Its worth a try.
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I'd be surprised if they deem to print your letter, willbee, but I hope that I'm wrong and it sparks lots of requests for re-instating of the Grid Refs.
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I would be more likely to accept the excuse given to Rowena if there weren't other anomalies in the guide. Why, for example, has the club decided to put a "WC" sign on the facility line only to cross it out if the CL doesn't have one. Isn't it easier just to include a sign for those that do? You don't put an "Electric" sign on every CL only to cross out those that don't have one.
Where has the "12" in the box gone to denote All Year open CLs? Do the people who decide these things actually use CLs?
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I was going to ask the same questions. They have also change the font and are now getting less letters per line than in the old SD. Had they stuck to the original one there would be more room available for the Grid Refs. Another couple of points...
1)Have you notice the number of blue boxes advertising features of the book? There appears to be more of them than previously, which of course is taking up yet more space that could be better used.
2) With reference to the loss of the All Year icon, they have now added the words "Open all Year"... so more space taken up and it also make it much harder for those that caravan all year round to identify which sites are open in the winter. I'll have to go right through the book highlighting them now.
Come on Ro please explain the reasons behind these issues to our satisfaction.
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Given the numerous shortcomings, he latest edition of the Handbook is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard.
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I posted this earlier this month. I have now had a response from the Club. The letter came from Kate Walters, Sites Directory & Handbook Editor. It gave the reasons for OS reference omissions that have been outlined elsewhere on this thread. It also stated that the the number of members unhappy with this will be monitored and "if it does inconvenience a significant number of members then I will certainly look to add them back in for the next edition of the Sites Directory".
So we know what to do, dont we?!
BUT she also enclosed a list of OS references for all Club sites and ALL CLs. Many thanks to her for this. Presumably this must mean this is available for others to request as well. It comes to 30+ pages.
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Thanks for the post, hja. I think that's what all those that are interested in getting the Grid References re-installed have to do now. I'll certainly be sending a request for the printed copy.
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Apologies if you sense some deja vu - I (wrongly) posted this in another thread..
Yes, of course the lack of OS Grid Refs is a concern, and with the many fewer CLs now in the handbook, due to losses on the network that haven't been filled by news CLs (despite some effort by the Club recently), I don't think the 'space in the directory' argument washes either.
Although it is of little comfort to those who eschew the Internet whilst traveling, and therefore rely on the OS grid ref (I'm a keen supporter of OS and love Grid Refs!), there is a modern alternative that has recently been developed and is gaining traction with many accommodation providers and even Mercedes who are building it into their car navigation. It's called What Three Words and amazingly provides a unique 3 word grid reference to every three meter square in the world. Read about it here. https://what3words.com/
In case you are wondering - our CL site is located here
https://w3w.co/lorry.foggy.dent
and the road entrance is here
https://w3w.co/airfields.lazy.sits
The 'selling point' is that words are easier than numbers.
FYI I shared this concept with the Club about 6 months ago, pointing out that it might be worth considering as members often complain that they can't find the entrance to a CL using a Post Code.
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