Cancelling a CL booking at short notice.
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For anyone who hasn't yet clicked on it, check the link in the OP as the CL looks lovely.
We visited Lincoln a few years ago for the xmas market, which was a brilliant day out, and the town and cathedral are well worth a visit.
Well done Nicola
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Would those who want total flexibility be happy to accept a CL owner responding on arrival for a three night stay by saying "Sorry, I've let your pitch half an hour ago to someone who has just turned up and paid for two weeks stay". I'm on the side of the CL owners. They are entitled to a reasonable return and late cancellations with little chance of reletting are tantamount to robbery.
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I have no problem with paying a deposit and would also not expect a refund for leaving early. I have also paid the full amount up front when asked without complaint, if you intend honouring the booking I see no problem.
One particular site that asks for payment up front will in the event of a cancellation use your payment for a future booking.
IMHO, CLs are a very important asset to many members and It would be wrong to exploit what some consider to be a flexible booking system.
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No shows are a business risk, if it's one that you don't want to take then charge a substantial non-refundable deposit.
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This is a lovely CL. We were there earlier this year.
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Onepjg - you make an interesting observation about this issue, but comparing the 'refund policy' of a shop to that of an accommodation provider (like a CL) is not a fair comparison.
If you purchase an item from a shop, and don't like it for some reason, you can normally return it - but only if it is possible for the shop to resell that item. The shop (barring some admin fees) will not have lost much revenue.
However, CL's - alongside Hotel's B&B's, Airlines, Ferries etc. may not be able to 'resell' a pitch, bed or flight that has been cancelled at short notice. Hence, the majority of such organisations charge the full fee up front, or take the balance 4-6 weeks in advance.
CL's are realising that they need to 'catch up' with the rest of the industry, if they wish to protect their income from cancellations.
FYI CL's make about £5,000 - £10,000 per year (some a bit more, many a lot less) so they cannot afford to be as flexible as the Club is with their policies if they wish to break even or show a small return.
The Club (by way of contrast) reported Group Revenue in 2015 of £109.6M (of which 44% or £47.9M was from Club Sites) with a surplus after tax of £4.1M.
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Avid CL users for the last 30 years, from very basic, to everything and more provided sites! We have a great deal of sympathy for CL owners who are experiencing late cancellations and no shows, and fully appreciate the impact it will be having upon their business model. Hence from a personal point of view, other than some slightly less robust wording, we would have no problem whatsoever with the booking/payment policy outlined in the OP. If we want to use a CL that is perfect in every aspect for us, then we are prepared to pay for it, and commit to turning up, staying for the duration, and even if we experience an extreme emergency, it is our emergency, not the CL owners, so we would look at insurance.
Having said the above, would qualify it by saying that the sheer beauty of the CL network lies in its diversity, and that diversity needs to remain, including any booking/payment arrangements. Some CLs will be extremely popular, booked up well in advance, not easy to just drop into. We know, we used one such for 12 years running, booking the next year dates as we left to ensure we got a pitch. Others, such as the little hidden gem we are on at the moment, operate totally differently, we haven't paid a penny yet, but owner is trusting us.
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Hi
Whilst I completely agree that a shop and a CL are different, the point I am making is that it is the policies of a business that encourage people to use it. If you were confronted with this policy would you think, 'Blimey, that's a bit harsh, they have plainly had problems' or not ? Would you also think that they suffered from a lot of cancellations, and wonder why ?
It seems to me the OP is counting her chickens before they have hatched, by confusing bookings with turnover. Only money in the bank counts, not promises. This leads to people talking about turnover lost, but it isn't lost, as they never actually had it in the first place. No money has actually been taken from their bank account. Imagine a builder going home to his wife and saying that's a lovely £25k extension job we just got, who gets a phone call the next day to say the client has changed their mind. Would he write a letter asking for his money, and if so who would actually pay. That's a bit tongue in cheek, but you get my point. When booking a package etc, the company have often transacted on your behalf with a third party, say a hotel, and that is why they take a deposit. Also you have to consider what is relevant. Many people talk about paying the full amount, and yet having not used the water, the electric etc it isn't the full amount that the OP missed out on, but the profit portion of the stay. Surely taking more than that would be a poor way to treat your customers.
I suspect running a deposit taking system will then provide it's own set of issues, that the OP will end up wondering if it was really worth it.
Finally, the more posts I read, the less I understand the issue. The overwhelming majority appear to be happy to pay the full amount,regardless. Wouldn't it therefore be best to contact no shows and politely ask for the money. Just about everyone seems to say they will pay, in full, without a quibble, so surely getting 90% + of the money, without the hassle of having to run a deposit scheme is a better option. Unless of course there are actually many who won't pay, in which case you come back to my point, would you keep or lose their business ?
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Continued...(blasted time out!)
Personally, our plea is don't impose blanket booking/payment methods on CLs. The last thing they should become is mini Club Sites, not a good business model anyway.
Surely each owner is best placed through experience to set their own policy, something ranging from up front no refunds, to pitch up, owner will call! They will both work, providing the initial guidance to members is clear at the time of booking.
I do think that if somehow possible, those serial offenders in terms of late cancellations/no shows should be recorded, reported to the Club and some form of action taken. They do it because they can on Club Sites, without any serious penalisation, and are treating CL owners the same, with much greater consequences.
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To be honest we don't use a lot of CL'S but those we have used have not asked for a deposit.
I find the t&c's of this CL a bit off putting. We tour with our van as we like flexibility so tend not to book to far in advance. I'm not in the habit of paying in advance for campsites and avoid doing so when ever possible. I am not keen on paying on arrival either but that is the way of the club so have to live with it.
Much prefer to tour across in Europe where one can arrive, check it out first then decide if going to stay or not, then pay on leaving. Wouldn't happen in UK of course but it works fine over here.
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I think this is very true re serial offenders, but I must admit I had always presumed that the same rules as applied at CAMC applied at CL's, and that a late cancellation would result in contact from the club etc etc
I would have thought many experienced CL owners would have a list of serial offenders, at their site, near the booking diary, with an appropriate means of dealing with them !!
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I'm sure 99% of members don't book with the idea of cancelling so I'm not sure that draconian methods need be applied.
It would be interesting to hear from CL owners what % of booking end up as cancellations or no-shows. Those that have high rates of cancellations may feel the need for deposits those with low rates may decide to leave as is.
I know for sure if someone wanted 50% or more as an up front non returnable deposit they won't be visited by us.
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One reason we use Club sites is the ease of altering or cancelling a booking. We always book with the intention to travel, but with advancing age, health problems can get in the way.
When looking at CLs, we would not book one that required a deposit if we were not 100% certain we would be able to start the trip, or indeed book any CL if we might have to cancel at very short notice.
This trip we had to leave booking till the day we actually went away due to a Dr appointment that day, so missed out on a couple of the CLs we had in mind.
I can see that this is a tricky issue for CLs.
Slightly different, but the other problem we find is that it is often not easy to make a booking, or just initially to find out whether there is availability. I wish more CLs had a booking website, or even just an e mail address.
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I wish CL owners with email addresses would check and reply on at least a daily basis. Many don't so I prefer to ring.
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No reply to an answering machine message or an email means I go elsewhere. I know I'm not alone so it's something CL owners might like to think about.
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As a CL owner, it's extremely encouraging to read the majority of the responses on this thread.
I'm delighted that most Members seem to appreciate the difficulties CL owners have when faced with a 'no show' or 'late cancellation' and that most members taking part in this discussion would offer to compensate an owner if they had to cancel.
I have some facts to share that may enlighten the debate.
Firstly though, I need to point out that the policy posted by the OP does NOT apply to the OP's own CL near Lincoln. If you look it up, the policy (in italics) comes from a popular & award-winning CL in Cumbria, which no doubt can afford to be fairly 'robust' in their approach. It might not suit many members, but it seems to suit them.. The OP goes on to specifically asks "Do CT members feel this is an extreme policy or is it a fair one?"
Onto some useful information to assist this discussion.
The Club's Policy for cancellations (to my mind) doesn't make it clear that it specifically relates to Club Sites. In my view the policy could be clarified so that Members don't assume the same rules apply to CL's.
A growing number of CL’s are investing in Booking Systems. This helps Members looking to see availability and then book without waiting for a busy CL owner (who may be getting his harvest in) to reply.
However, even with a confirmed booking in writing and automated reminders, it still seems that some members forget they have booked, turn up at the wrong CL or simply change their plans at the last minute on a whim.
The effect of a late cancellation on a CL is threefold;- They likely lose 20% of their expected income - unless they can re-sell the pitch very quickly
- They are involved in additional admin / marketing effort to un-book and then re-sell the pitch
- They may have denied another Member the opportunity to book that CL.
In August the CL Owners Group conducted some research on this topic. 90 CL owners took part..
- 65 CL’s reported that they had had cancellations or early departures where no compensation was forthcoming. Of those 65, 44 CL’s reported in detail on 71 different booking cancellations. Those 44 CL’s lost a total of £5,584 and in total 464 pitch nights.
- 43% of the 71 cancellations were attributed to Illness or bereavement, 13% due to mechanical breakdown, but 41% were because the Member had forgotten about the booking (see OP), or left early because they didn’t like the Pitch.
- In most cases the Owners were left entirely out of pocket as the majority (67%) had not taken a deposit. Some attempted to recover some ££ through politely asking the member concerned, but had nil response.
The Club has been asked (July 2017) to assist CL’s to address this issue by recording the names of no shows (as it does with Club Sites), but citing both ‘resources’ and ‘data protection issues’ the Club has declined.
The Owners Group will be seeking assistance from the Club to address this issue in other ways, perhaps by drawing up some common-sense guidelines that we (Member and CL Owners) can all agree on that reflect much of what has been said in this thread.
The group will continue to monitor this issue. We are encouraged that Members realise we are small businesses, trying to cover our costs whilst delivering a valuable network across the UK where members can stay.0 -
Hi Cholsey Grange
'As a CL owner, it's extremely encouraging to read the majority of the responses on this thread.'
I would point out that as far as I'm aware, every post has been positive in their view of CL's, and that those who have suggested keeping the non deposit aren't necessarily people who just book regardless, with no care as to if they use it. They appear to be people who like and use the CL network and want it to continue, but value its flexibility.
I think it is important to remember that you are using the CAMC to access its members, with a view to promoting and selling your sites. I understood that you only allowed members of the CAMC on site. Surely it's not unreasonable of those members to view you in the same way as the CAMC with regards to its booking systems. I presume that those CL owners who wish for a deposit system would still want to promote themselves through the CAMC, but that is a bit cake and eat it !
You are at the sharp end, and presumably via your group, would know if CL's charging deposits have increased, decreased or kept the status quo with regards to their overall bookings. I think people on here who are suggesting keeping it as it is, are merely suggesting that it could decrease visits overall, as they would look elsewhere.
Remember that many 'vanners, by their very nature, like the freedom it provides, because otherwise they would probably book hotels, cottages etc.
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As a regular CL user I don't want to upset any owner, but sometimes you have to cancel due to unforseen circumstances. This happened earlier in the year with ourselves whereby stays at 3 CLs had to be cancelled within a month of departure due to my MIL having an operation and us needing to care for her. We did give the owners as much notice as we could and lost 2 deposits, which I thought was fair, particularly as one was over a Bank Holiday. I offered to pay for the extra lost days but the owner declined saying that 3 weeks notice should be sufficient for re-booking.
I don't think there should be hard and fast rules as most members that I come across are quite fair and don't seem to play the system in the same way as you find on CC site bookings. I can quite understand it if the CL owner kept a log of frequent cancellers and refused them entry but agree with a lot of posters saying that the wording in the OP seems very heavy handed and would put me off going to the CL.
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Thanks, Cholsey. I realise it's not Nicola's site we're talking about but this is very much a sounding board exercise.
I also realise that CL owners have other strings to their bows and I don't expect an instant response but some are extremely tardy at replying.
Personally, I have no problem with paying a deposit, or fees up front, but please see my post at the start of this thread pointing out that trying to extract payment from a no show is unworkable if that person refuses to pay. I reckon you need a black list available to all CL owners.
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I know data protection has be sited, along with resources at HQ BUT is it possible to record membership numbers of no shows? That way there's no names no pack drill. Membership numbers continue from year to year and I assume aren't reallocated. Thus details of membership numbers can be circulate between CL's but no personal information is disclosed.
After all you need to be a member to use the CL so not an extra question that can be considered intrusive.
Just an idea
I hadn't occurred to me that club rules on deposits and cancellations would apply to CL's but maybe it should be made clearer that they aren't one and the same.
Financial reward for no shows without a deposit system will never be recovered.
Wanted to write more but guests have arrived 😉. Lots of food for thought on tjis thread
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Although the majority on here, CT, are in agreement with paying a deposit &/or fees for non-show or early leaving, I don't believe that those that correspond on CT are really representative of CC membership, but only of those that are interested enough in the Club to be bothered to log in. Make of that what you may.
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An interesting thread in many ways, and good for the CL owners to share insights into problems they are having. However, it is only a tiny percentage of the total number of CLs.
I would suspect that many Club Members are trying out CLs as a cheaper alternative to Club Sites, possibly not realising that the booking/cancellation/ payment policies are totally different. I also suspect that there will be seriously popular CLs, probably those that have invested heavily in extra facilities and needing to hit income targets to cover the expenditure and overheads. Combine these two, and there is a serious need for quite robust booking /payments policy, hence it would be a good idea for them to have something like the procedure outlined in the OP.
But the vast majority of CL owners appear to us to be more philosophical about their customer base, and are satisfied to keep things simple all round, perhaps keeping a "black book" for their own purposes. We are currently on a tour of a very popular holiday area, but are booking CLs "on the hoof" and having no problem finding lovely sites to suit (loos, showers, HS, free wifi) all with just a phone call, and either pay as we arrive, or in the current case, when we decide to leave.
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They can't stay on some Club Sites Oneputt, some are Members Only. It would add another payment level to CLs, a none member rate. Some might like it, others might not. Not sure if it affects Inspection Certificate Club issues annually either.
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It's Government ruling, One. Natural England lay down the rules.
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Thanks for the info but on reading the exemption it doesn't really indicate that non members can't use CL's:. In summary:
Caravan club exemptions
Supervised and occupied sites exemption
let non-members bring and stay in their own caravan (if agreed with the landowner)
Approved sites exemption
Non-members are allowed to stay on the site if your club and the landowner agree to it.
Club meetings or rallies exemption
This is known as a paragraph 6 exemption.
With this exemption, your club can use a site for club meetings, rallies or events. These meetings need to:
· last no longer than 5 days
· be supervised by a member of the club
· be open to members only
The exemptions seem to show that non members can stay (with the exception of rallies) so I assume(?) it must be a club rule.
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What we find odd, is that CL's can't sell Membership to 'drive-in' customers. The C&CC allows their CS's to do this.
With 2,300 CL's acting as 'sales outlets' I'm sure that the Club would gain a few hundred new members each year, and in the process CL's would not have to turn away non-members, and might even earn a small % of the £49 as a 'sign-on' bonus (as per the C&CC)..
When a CL is trying to 'fill' a late cancellation pitch on a bank holiday, and a non-member drives in, it doesn't seem logical to ask them to go on-line (may be difficult to do) to subscribe, or to call the Call Centre.
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One, some of that is clearly for supervised sites and rallies but the Approved Sites Exemption you quote seems to be at odds with the first part of the article which states it's for members only.
Perhaps the members only rule is actually a form of safeguard for the CL owners.
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