EV's and towing
There has been previous discussions on this subject, particularly from Chocolate Trees. There is now a new test on youtube, Harry's Garage (Harry Metcalfe, a respected motoring journalist). He has a Porsche Macan EV (top of the range) on test from Porsche. The Macan is supplied with a towbar - so he's tested it. The car has a theoretical range of 350 miles not towing. He attached a car trailer with a lightweight Lotus Elan in it - a similar weight to a family caravan and within the certified towing weight of the car. He was totally shocked. The range on a full charge dropped to 90 - 100 miles. He then took it to a public charging station, and found (as we all know) that the car could not be charged without unhitching the trailer, as the charge point is at the rear of the car (as most are) and the cable on the charger was not long enough to reach it.
Comments
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I watched a video on YouTube the other day where they towed two different caravans with an EV. One was average weight but the other was a twin axle. (The caravans were picked up a Chichester Caravans and the test route was to the Motor Museum at Beaulieu and back ) There was quite a big difference in the test results between the lighter and heavier caravans.
Both Clubs need to be making representations to the Government to make sure suitable charging slots for towed caravans are available on Service areas. At the moment I am not sure that is being given any priority? Perhaps when towing with EV's becomes more widespread towing habits will change. Maybe in future people will tow shorter distances and charge on site? I would have thought that most weekend trips would fit with that now. It's the longer trips that will either take more planning or will be split into more segments.
David
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I am afraid that there is no EV available that has the towing range most of us need. The best I have seen suggested was 135 miles but given we very rarely do less than 150 miles when towing they are just about useless. We need over 200 miles to make them a realistic option as that gives you the point at which you can justify a stop for a rest anyway.
Even the tests giving around 100 miles plus seem to be normally achieved with a very light caravan usually a Bailey Discovery or similar, which suggests that we actually need even more than at first looks to be the case. A car and trailer will not have the wind resistance of a caravan which might mean its figures are better the we would get. There is a long way to go before we can get one as a practical tow car.
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On the way back from the shops today I was listening to Radio 4 and they were talking about electric vehicles and mainly about the difficulties of charging them at home if you don't have a drive. Some local authorities have banned the use of cables across the pavement. Another interesting comment was that EV manufacturers should be required to give the range of the car under different conditions. An ICE car will have economy expressed as urban/long/mixed but EV only have one figure mentioned and as the caller pointed out it very much depends on the journey and speed in an EV as to how much range you have.
One comment I thought made a lot of sense was about PHEV cars and how various Governments should have promoted these far more and there is some campaign to get them produced for longer as EV's are not the best choice in all circumstances.
David
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I agree with the Radio 4 point. The government has done nothing to help sell the things that I can see. I do have a drive so could get the cheap electricity needed but outside of the house we would have to pay more per unit plus 20% vat making the costs higher than with ICU cars. The cars are heavier so you pay more for tyres, brakes etc and they cost more. Tax on them is now set at a level which means they have no real advantage over ICU there either.
Servicing is cheaper but insurance is more. Unless there is some real incentive to buy them I an see no real enthusiasm being generated. People still do not trust the range or availability of charging availability although my nephew has run one for several years and only had one problem of finding a working charger, so it might be overdone.
The government needs to do something to promote them if they are serious about getting them on the road and they could start with reducing the 20% vat which for people who cannot charge at home makes the cars expensive to run.
I can see the problem of not allowing cables over the footpath though, they are a serious trip hazard. If the cost of refuelling came down a trip to the charge point would be little different than using a petrol station for those affected.
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I think the last and current Governments are trying to introduce a system where anyone can use any charging point without an App, just a payment card. This is a little bit like shutting the gate etc, as it should have been done when the EV points were originally installed. It led to various companies all introducing different systems which they are now trying to un do. Even Tesla are being forced to open their chargers to non Tesla owners. My son has an EV and a home charger so rarely has to use a commercial charger.
David
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To tow with an EV we would need to change the way we tour, at present with our PHEV tow 180 miles in one hit, with an EV we would need to book shorter distance between splitting our journey into 2 halfs i.e 90/100 miles between sites.
We have solar panels, battery and a home EV charger so going down the EV route eventually is a no brainer, lets see what happens.
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This is why we have just bought a Ford Kuga PHEV. It is still pretty clear to me that a pure EV is not suitable for towing. Andrew Ditton has done a few videos about towing with an EV and although he was a fan they confirmed to me ages ago that I can't contemplate a pure EV untill we give up towing.
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To me the government and the EEC ones should force providers to produce a standard plug to fit all models. If your car then had a different one you should be able to buy a convertor to cover the problem. I think the implementation is going to happen but it needs a push.
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@Wildwood I suppose EV's started off as a bit of a niche market and at the time the powers that be were not really paying much attention to such things? Trouble is that eventually this tends to bit you in the bum! If we are really to move forward we need a common approach to connectors and we need to be able public charging points where you don't need a specific App to use them. Apparently Tesla have been told (?) to open their chargers to all comers but suddenly there has been a year's delay. How long did it take for us to get common connections to charge our phones, might take as long with EV chargers😮
David
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unless battery technology advances to the point an EV can achieve a similar range to an ICE vehicle with a full tank of fuel, towing with one is not an option.
The backlash from manufactures regarding the unrealistic ZEV mandate targets has started , and rightly so, they are being held to ransom by the government to sell vehicles to market that doesn't exist. I truly believe that if this madness continues , it will cause irreversible damage to our economy, cause thousands of job loses and take away the freedom of movement we all take for granted.
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A big IF I know, but if you accept that the Government are right in moving towards zero emissions, at point of use, for road vehicles there does have to be some sanctions in place to force the hand of manufacturers who may otherwise just pay lip service to the idea. Now whether the current sanctions are too strict is a matter of debate but I would suggest that there would have to be a massive decrease in those sanctions to make a difference which would rather undermine the original objective?
I suppose what people have to ask themselves is am I going to still be involved in this hobby in ten years time? If the answer to that is no then I see no reason to worry as current ICE models will still be around. If the answer is yes and beyond there is still the possibility of running and ICE vehicle although they will be getting a bit long in the tooth but perhaps the saving grace will be PHEV vehicles which will go on a bit longer.
David
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- I think it's "horses for courses". One person's "not enough range" is another persons "too long between stops". We are in our 4th season of electric towing and it's been just fine for us, with about 120 miles on a leg, which is a break after about 2.5 hours of towing.
- On the EV vs PHEV debate (with relation to home charging and cables across paths), PHEVs are fundamentally useless if you cannot charge them overnight at home. They don't solve any of the issue associated with EV ownership for those without a drive and home charging. If you have a drive and home charging, they can give piece of mind for longer journeys, but IMHO its unnecessary (see point one).
- EU sales are down, mainly because they are down in Germany. They are up pretty much everywhere else. including the UK.
Of course - as I said - it's horses for courses. I would hate to have to go back to a petrol car for my main usage or towing. It would be fundamental step backward in ease of use and refinement. But others may have a different opinion and choose a different path.
PS. On the Porsche Macan, with a 95kWh usable battery, I guarantee I could get 150 miles of towing out of it with my Unicorn S3.
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I understand the argument but to survive we need to keep our industries including cars. If the government will not move on the numbers sold then they have to produce more incentives to get people using them. As ChocolateTrees says unless you have a drive where you can charge your car they are useless. I need a bit more than 120 miles between stops though if towing and I think most people will only move over when they can manage two hundred or are made to change.
I cannot see why those who do not have a drive cannot use the power outlets provided for them in the same way as we do with ICE models except for the cost. Quite simply it is far more expensive to drive an electric car if you rely on these to refuel so there is a disincentive to buy one, which is plain stupid. The biggest undefendable charge is the 20% VAT compared to the 6% you would pay at home but also the companies operating the sites are charging well above the commercial rate for electricity and this need looking at. Until things change in favour of EV's they will not sell as people will vote with their wallet.
Other costs like insurance and tyres will be higher, but there is not a lot you can do there, although some incentive to help with the higher price of the cars might help.
Given I am 78, I doubt the 2030 date will worry me, if I am still driving I should be able to make whatever I have then last for as long as I need it.
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One clarification - it is a PHEV that is useless without somewhere to charge, not an EV. A PHEV's job is fundamentally to reduce emissions by using electricity alone to run. If you can't charge over night, that is not possible and you essentially just have a regular hybrid with a heavy battery. EV can be used without overnight charging, though it makes life both cheaper and easier if you can overnight charge. I would not want to have to run an EV without access to overnight charging, although I could, and would if that were the only way to avoid going back to liquid fuel.
BTW - in my experience, insurance and tyres (which last just as long) are no more expensive than for an ICE car.
I fully agree with your comment on VAT on public vs private charging. It would be a simple way to promote takeup and even the field for those who can home charge and those who can't. I feel the government does need to do more to assist those without home charging options to take advantage of EVs. If one can home charge, it solves most of the other issues with public charging as you almost never use it…
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I can see the sun on the horizon in the form of the PHEV dower plant appearing in some of the new VAG cars. Some models of Golf, Tiguan, Kodiaq and Superb are recipients of a 1.5L petrol with plug in assistance. If you can home charge, in my case at 22p/Kw, then an electric only range of up to 88 miles looks very attractive as it will cover the majority of my non towing motoring at a low price per mile.
With the availability of this powerplant in a range of vehicles with up to an 1800kg towing capacity then I'm guessing it could meet most caravan owners needs.
Colin
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