Is EHU metering a good investment?
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In 1980s we had a Target caravan with wet heating. The boiler sat outside on the A-frame and had a pull-and-turn valve on the burner allowing two levels of heat. The handbook suggested that in cold weather we should turn on the second burner!
As an aside, we were using the earlier Calor lightweight bottles that were alluminium.
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Our van is a 2008 model, I think it was 2009 when Swift beefed up the insulation in their vans, so we just missed out.
As TW said, the Alde system has been around for a long time, and was indeed originally designed for boats. It is very popular in Scandinavia where lots of people have seasonal vans that are used all year round, as it can be remotely controlled to turn on the heating, on gas, so the van is warm when you arrive for a weekend of ski-ing .
Warm up does take longer, especially in winter, than the blown air as the whole fabric of the van is heated, so we would normally leave it running, at a lower temperature when we are out for the day so that bringing it back to a more comfortable temperature does not take so long. This is much less of a problem usually in late spring, summer, and early autumn, when we do most of our caravanning.
As we spent a lot of time in Germany in 2009-2017, where metered electricity is quite common, and very expensive, and connection boxes are often locked, I had fitted a metering system in the van so we could keep an eye on our use and not end up with an eye-watering bill, something which is very possible in below zero temperatures in the Black Forest in May!
We noticed that most German caravanners use very large gas bottles, so they must also find their electricity expensive and prefer to use gas. Plus, as already said, on most continental vans an electric heating system is usually an optional extra, and gas is much better at heating the van quickly as you are not limited by the rating of the EHU.
We also have a refillable Gaslow system, so using gas for heating is more cost effective when EHU rates are high, and we often speed up the heating and HW by using gas even when EHU is not metered.
We have an excellent user payload and a very good, spacious shower room in our van, the main reasons we still have it, and OH needs help when showering, so it makes life much easier just to use our own facilities most of the time, even though it usually means fetching more water.
The advantage though is that we can use no facility sites and CLs, and do not need to worry about the standard of facilities anywhere. And save on site fees!
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The price pressure is worldwide CY it’s not down to lack of on site or lack of metering. If I personally ever pay extra for someone to be warm I’m happy to help, it’s the caring thing👍🏻
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Always? I use quite a few eat as much as you want restaurants where slides and extras do not cost extra at all and one can have as many courses as one wants . And no they are not full of obese people, and even if they were I'm just interested in my meal and don't constantly look at what the next table are getting through.
But the club, and a lot of other non club sites it has to be said, just offers an all-inclusive package just like certain restaurants holidays, cruise ship..., it's their business model, if one doesn't like it then don't buy it?
So the cost has gone up 38% so what? Either pay it or not? What else are you going to you? Apart from posting on here about it and hoping for a change?
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+1, the voice of common sense MrC👍🏻
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I had no idea! Every day a school day! :-)
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Well, there you go. I read somewhere that it was first in use in 1949 so it's as old as I am. 😄
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Hi DD, the 60p / kWh is an educated guesstimate based on the cost of public EV charging. Before the energy crisis, public EV charging was between about 25p and 40p/kWh. Domestic energy was about 15p - 18p /kWh. A margin of 20-22p allowing for the 15% difference in VAT.
Today EV charging, which is not bound by the consumer price cap, is between 70p and 90p Allowing for a similar margin, that makes commercial electricity of the order of 60p / kWh. It's an educated guess - is anyone has a better number, I would be open to hearing / using it to better quantify the proportion of a pitch cost associated with energy use.
My 18.5kWh for the Sunday 4th is read direct from my home battery system. It's an accurate number and aligns directly with my smart meter data. My usage (at this time of year) is a fairly consistent 18-22 kWh including water heating, without car charging.
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Wow, I checked it as it's been a good winter site for us in the past...that's a sizeable increase CY.😕
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"So the cost has gone up 38% so what? Either pay it or not? What else are you going to you? Apart from posting on here about it and hoping for a change?"
i don't see anything wrong with supplying this sort of info...the prices of sites are bound to be linked to folks' reaction to any potential metering.
some will see this rate of increase as the club already doing what they need to to offset power price increases...if the core then feel that they are going to metered, again more expensive for some users, that might be a shock.
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No - it's right. It's high because
1) We heat all our water on electricity at the moment. 4hours at 3kW over night in a 220L tank. (8-12kWh in water heating depending on usage)
2) I work from home. I use 2 monitors and a laptop.
3) My eldest is at home with a gaming PC on for about 8 hours a day.
4) There are between 5 and 7 of us at home at any given time. -> average of 1 laundry load and 1 dishwasher load per day.
My normal night base load is around 220W, running 2 fridge-freezers, an additional freezer, and a bunch of the usual electronics.
Lots of people = lots of use. In summer, its as low as 3kWh a day for the same load based on our solar cell gain.
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Eat all you can restaurants are different, they advertise the fact and they base their costs on the average consumer. When using moderate eaters know we are paying some of the glutton’s bill.
The club is different they advertise the fact that we should be frugal and we subsidise those that waste energy purely because they can. In this day and age maybe this approach to consumerism should be questioned. Too many food banks, folk, including children going hungry and obese people with health issues the NHS have to deal with.4 -
Rocky, I have no issue with charitable acts where individuals are suffering and in need. I do object to paying for those who are not in that needy category and who are happy to take from the rest of us purely because they can and the current system is unable to stop them doing so.
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We try to avoid the eat all you want restraunt s as their prices tend reflect their advertising
It is the buffet types where the serve you the meats and then you can help yourselves to vegetables,that the I have paid so I will make a pig of myself and then leave much of what they have put on their plate ,it was really notable when we used Searles at sunny hunny a few weeks ago
Even at the Breakfast Which was all buffet
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I don't see the all different micky the price is advertised on club sites as well and based on the 'average' user too and I think this wasting campers to be a myth that we read about or vastly over-estimated. People use what they need on holiday and that's it. The average isn't fixed either if more people use energy it will go up or down of course if the other way
But again why target club sites with these questions? Why not all inclusive holidays? hotels? I was in a holiday cottage and the energy prices are included but do I care if others are using more than me? I just accept the price.
As to the other issues I don't think metering has any relevance to this or indeed to those of us who use any type of holiday site. If you want I can really tell you what I've come across this term in terms of real poverty.
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The issues are very current. There is an energy crisis and the club, along with many others institutions are now attempting to reduce their energy consumption, wastage and carbon footprint. I have no truck with those who use only that required and are mindful of the bigger picture. I have concerns about those that are wasteful and believe me they do exist on sites, I’ve witnessed them as have others. The heating left on whilst out all day just so the van is toasty warm on return, the awning illuminated by that heater 24/7. If they did not exist the club would not be making those requests for a little more consideration regarding energy consumption.
I think practically everyone of us actively seek the best and most appropriate tariffs for our homes but some when on site just don't care. Believe me, we all pay for those excess users whenever and wherever they are allowed to take that biscuit. It doesn’t make it right just because they can, it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t acknowledge and address that issues they inflict upon us, it doesn’t mean that we should be lazy about our own energy usage. I’m sure many of us would complain bitterly if it was happening in our household budget. I did when my teenage children were at home and they were blood kith and kin and they suffered my repeated request to turn the lights off or the TV when they left the room. That was when there really wasn't an energy crisis too, am I so different to other careful householders, I suspect not. Some obviously have a different approach when it’s not their personal budget mind that they can abuse.7 -
Yes agree about the energy crisis but you were talking about, and I was replying to, the food banks and children going hungry which I have seen at first hand.
And sorry I do leave my caravan heating on during the day although sometimes reduced (I've posted this before) as I find nothing worse than coming back after a day out in winter and shivering away in my coat till the caravan warms up thinking I was warmer at the summits, I don't do that at home and certainty won't do that on holiday. I won't waste energy but I will use what I need to enjoy myself and that means coming back to a warm caravan.
We'll agree to differ, politely as always between us but to me a club site is no different to any other holiday accommodation where costs are averaged out by those staying.
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And we'll agree on that micky
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Just had a look at ours, Eon gives you a daily average for each month. In the colder months, last year and November of this year our average is 15 / 17 units a day. So not dissimilar to CT’s figure. We don’t heat water with electric as CT does, the solid fuel heating does that, but do run an oil filled radiator in an area not covered by the solid fuel.
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I never meant it as a charitable act MSF🤷🏻♂️, I meant it as I won’t have a possessive outburst because someone wanted some warmth I may have invested in👍🏻. No one thinks ‘charitable’ when discussing tuggers or Moho owners surely?😂😂
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And sorry I do leave my caravan heating on during the day although sometimes reduced (I've posted this before) as I find nothing worse than coming back after a day out in winter and shivering away in my coat till the caravan warms up
+1
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Why is a pitch different to a hotel or holiday cottage? Valid question that comes down to two things. 1) the relative cost of the energy being provided as related to the rest of the service. 2) the relatively fixed nature of consumption for users of other type of facility.
In a hotel or holiday let, the cost of heating, lighting, refrigeration, cooking and entertainment is built into the room or let, because the scale of use for the room or let is well established. In general, the power for those items is a small amount relative to the cost of the room or let.
In a campsite, that is often not the case, especially if the location is "basic" with no toilet block or other facilities (think Borrowdale club site). Now the energy cost is both significant with respect to the pitch cost, and highly variable based on individual usage.
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No as I see it.
The club has records of its energy usage going back decades I should imagine with all possible differing temperatures and knows exactly what a site like Borrowdale will use, or has used year on year as the numbers staying are fairly fixed and will know in advance, those numbers won't vary that much. Also with such large numbers of users, hundreds of thousands (?) over the network it will be a nice normal curve with no spikes and no large or small individual item will alter the average much if at all.
Also with such large numbers or data even from one site, the fluctuation around the mean, standard deviation, will be relatively small as SD goes down as sample sizes increase if I recall correctly
Doesn't matter about the cost relative to the pitch cost as that could be true of any accommodation type.
But as always this is how the club operates either buy in or find sites with metering?
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I presume you are aware Corners that CAMC have just put their prices up, again. They have stated they underestimated by 100% energy costs for this year, that's quite an underestimated amount! Therefore requests to reduce consumption eg not leaving heating on in a van when you are out are sensible requests to prevent further price hikes.
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I doubt that relates to consumption, rather the price they are having to pay for it. Perhaps they were hoping to get a better long term deal. Certainly when our current contract comes to an end our costs will increase by 100% overnight. I wouldn’t have thought that at the beginning of the year.
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