Is EHU metering a good investment?
I was going to post this in the thread that has been Deleted User as a number of folk were saying that EHU Metering would make pitch prices cheaper, so Let's play the You Said, We Listened and Implemented game. This is my view based on my experience as an IT Infrastructure Project Manager and in IT Procurement. To satisfy the We don't want EHU and want cheaper pitch prices group of people, the We only want to pay for the electricity we use group of people and the I'll pay whatever as I'm on holiday group of people, the clubs only option is to move to metered usage. How does the club do that and what investment would be needed. Lets estimate that the club has over 10,000 pitches with an average of 2 hookups per bollard that's 5,000 bollards that will need to be modified and/or replaced and some of those will need groundwork undertaken for new cabling etc, it will require putting all pitches out of action and subsequent loss of income whilst the work takes place. This can't all be done at once and I think that a 5 year rollout period would be a stretch and it would take a dedicated team at HQ to manage. They would need to procure equipment, electrical installation teams, groundwork teams, IT systems and software to operate the metering and payments, negotiate contracts with all the power companies who supply the club sites and negotiate with any land owners. I don't think you would get much change from a £5 million investment of the clubs (our) money. Issues that the club would need to consider 1) leased sites where the land owner doesn't give permission for the work to be carried out or the lease will soon come to an end 2) the price per kW from each of the power suppliers will vary depending on contract length and renewal dates, so do they average that price out across all sites or do you have different EHU costs in different areas of the network 3) do you factor the suppliers standing charge into the metered cost, 4) the club would need to move to a credit card only payment system where the payment for EUH used is automatically deducted at the end of your stay 5) a central dispute resolution team, as there will always be people who will challenge the bill and that shouldn't be the on site teams and finally the biggest question for the club, 6) what return on investment will the club get. I doubt very much that the savings made from the electricity used would come close to the investment needed therefore the remaining investment would need to come from reserves and most likely recouped from increased pitch prices. Lastly this would give the club a very inconsistent offering with not all sites offering metered EUH, the cost of EHU could vary from site to site and an even bigger price variance across the network. Not a very good Business Case in my view, in terms of both investment and inconvenience to the membership so I can't see it happening I'm afraid.
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There are strict rules about the reselling of electricity, GE, and it can only be resold at the price the reseller pays the energy company. Therefore, the price per kWh will vary between sires. I don’t seem to have the link any more but you can look up the regs. It’s far more involved than many people think.
Didn't CAMC say they were proposing you trial metering lekky on a couple of sites? It’ll happen, the only question is when.
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I can't remember if it was looking at a trial or actually doing a trial? I agree with the OP and it's money that cannot be recouped in any way.
Having said that perhaps when any new sites are built from scratch or very major refurbishments then why not? Or perhaps it's cheaper to not have them then?
I think it might be like deposits, almost everyone on here was for them till they appeared then scores of non regular posters appeared to say the opposite.
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As many of this clubs sites are leased and I understand that not a small percentage are coming up for renewal in the next few years,
Will it happen? with metering.on many sites with the investment required before it becomes the norm ,
I understand that a couple of sites this year are to have meters installed to test the water and the electricity used will via an app on a smart phone how some members or non members will pay if they do not have the app
Will be about the same as members are finding without the latest programme in their computers with the latest booking? System
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It won’t make a blind bit of difference what the Membership thinks or says. The Club will look at its usage figures, and if all is hunky dory, then it will just continue along the same path. If Site usage starts to dwindle, or it becomes apparent that there is a swing towards less use of energy, then the Club will possibly react in some way. It’s as simple as that. This is not a dynamic organisation……..
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Your first line is what I said. As for the rest, from memory, it's not allowed to be included in the metered price but it’s all covered in the regs.
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I think a trial of metering at a site or couple of sites would be purely to obtain data on the actual electricity used by pitch and pitch types. Also the to gauge costs, installation and to also trial payment systems and all of that data can then be used to determine the feasibility of a network rollout. Also a trial like that can be done without impacting members.
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It is where the maintenance and calibration costs ,will be where members will be in the dispute situation,
Does this club have a national electricity contract or is it by area?
- I do know that the meters on club sites have/had several different readings figures
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Sorry, I’m not in a position to answer your question or to comment on the rest.
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You quoted my post and then said to GE "…as my post to tinny explained…". Therefore, it's a very good impression of a reply😂😂😂. No matter🤯
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Another view based primarily as a customer who has used the system David above relates.
It may not be possible to satisfy all the members without some sort of investment...however it's pretty easy to satisfy the 'We don't want EHU and want cheaper pitch prices' group of people AND the 'I'll pay whatever as I'm on holiday' group of people.
all that's needed is a non-EHU option on every pitch...simply plug in or not and charge as appropriate.
Of course this relies on trust and the 'deterrent' of the warden wandering over the site (surely something normally done) to ensure there's no misuse.It won't satisfy everyone but (as Meatloaf suggested) 2 out of 3 ain't bad😉...and costs nothing.
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Somewhere, either on this forum or elsewhere, there was a response from someone who is involved in campsites involving both statics and tourers. They said that metering/cost of electricity was the biggest topic exercising the minds of site owners at present. Not surprising, especially when you see some of the prices they are paying at easily three times the domestic rate.
Site owners will face the issue of either metering in some way (or having non-EHU pitches if appropriate) or putting up pitch prices to cover the costs.
It is clear from seeing details from some CLs that an increasing number are now metering in some way. I have no knowledge of what CSs are doing, but they presumably have similar issues.
If quite a lot of commercial sites go down the metering/non EHU route and the Club doesnt but just includes the electricity price within its pitch price as now, then the Club's pitches will soon appear to be very expensive in comparison to other sites.
Obviously there are lots of imponderables in the original post that we cant answer, such as how the Club organises its electricity contracts, how many leases are to come for renewal in the next five years etc.
My understanding was that the Club IS going to do some trials, but I dont know how, when, where or what the main aim will be.
I know the Club have put new bollards in some of the refurbished sites - are those easier to put meters on? Maybe the Club is more prepared than we think!
This isnt an issue that is going to go away anytime soon and I cant see the long term issue being anything but metering, may be with an ehu/non ehu option in the interim. I also dont think the time scale is a very long one. My guess is that metering could be one of those snowballing things, starts slowly (as it already has) and quickly speeds up. Probably the changeover will be limited by the availability of the necessary kit and staff to install.
I would hope that the Club is seriously investigating all the issues involved, and all the options, with some degree of urgency. To be cynical for a moment, this isnt necessarily about members preferences etc, but more about the bottom line. GE, in their original post, doesnt think there is a good business case, but maybe the bad business case is actually to do nothing.
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I think I first came across a campsite with metered electricity fully 30 years ago - somewhere on the south side of the Brenner Pass - but some members still write as though it’s an incredible modern invention. That site could afford to instal tnem then, and CAMC one day will.
Ooh it’s going to be such an exciting ride for some members as this Club eventually modernises. Hold tight.
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Can I froth up the muddy waters a bit by suggesting the The Caravan Club might well be able to fix their own price if they generate their own electricity.
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This is what was said at the AGM in response to a question about providing more non EHU pitches:-
"The Club is actively looking at options for introducing metering, with a view to being able to test and trial a simple operating solution on one or two sites in 2023. We do already have a small number of "eco pitches" across the network, but we recognise they are not currently widespread. Metering would help facilitate the option of non-electric pitches in the future. In addition, the Club is introducing energy-saving technologies to sites as they are redeveloped and as part of the sustainability journey, we will be looking at additional ways to encourage the membership to be mindful of a responsible use of energy when on site."
David
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Hi hja, This is one of my previous posts;
Posted on 16/03/2022 19:12
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So far as seeing this “from the other side” goes, I spent time yesterday with the owner of a 300 pitch site near Newquay.The discussion was wide ranging, but on EV charging he felt that due to his electricity costs he would not be able to allow it and that he was frustrated by the “high expectations” of guests who wanted low pitch prices but unlimited use of electricity.
He had considered installing EV chargers but the price, for the type he was told he would need, was prohibitive, and it was the same for metered supplies at the pitch.
The site owner has taken the decision not to allow EV charging, and it’s covered in their T&Cs, for the reasons given.
He did not see it was for him, or his customers, to subsidise the equipment, or infrastructure, required to enable him to offer EV charging-he did put it slightly differently!
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Thanks.
Although I do think metering electricity is a different issue to charging hybrid and full ev cars. I notice quite a number of CLs now saying that they dont allow car charging and indicating where the nearest public charging points are.
I'm slightly surprised about the prohibitive costs of metering in general, although I guess that is more about the size of the site and necessary up front payment. Smaller sites seem to be able to more easily accommodate the costs.
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"If quite a lot of commercial sites go down the metering/non EHU route and the Club doesnt but just includes the electricity price within its pitch price as now, then the Club's pitches will soon appear to be very expensive in comparison to other sites."
This is a very salient point....especially if other sites use the same 'from' (absolute minimum) prices the Club does.
a commercial site at, say, £12 a night (for one person plus pitch plus metered electric) looks attractive against a Club site of, say, £16 (for one person plus pitch plus inclusive electric).
customers may have to get used to the 'new' like for like (or not) pricing and be fully aware of what's included.
Of course, in spring/summer it does mean that sites with metered electric might seem like a bargain for those with solar.😀😀😀 (one for each panel).
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If a small site can manage, say, 20 pitches with meters out of the profits from 20 pitches, why can't the club manage 100 pitch metering out of the profits for 100 pitches? The costs might be 5 times as much but so will the level of the profits.
surely, with the clubs economies of scale (and the 'insurances', membership fees etc) they must be at least as profitable (per network pitch) as a small site?
whenever this topic is discussed numbers like £5m are bandied about. Yes, it's a lot of money but then so is the relative price for a 20 pitch site compared to its turnover and profit.
that mentioned £5m is funded across the whole huge site network in the same proportion as the 20 van site....it's only the scale of the number that makes folk gasp...
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...say, 20 pitches with meters out of the profits from 20 pitches, why...
Where did anyone mention anything about profits from any number of pitches?
It is against the law to make a profit out of metering pure and simple. A site can pay to install meters but I cannot see how they can make a profit from them to pay for that cost?
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Where we are going to stop over Xmas and new year it is a 20 pitch site and the owner is very proud and let's everybody know it
he spent £60,000 building his new facilities block and he has jus apologised he has increased his prices from £20 in the summer to £23 for the winter months per night hardstanding for two adults with 16 amp EHU To put things in perspective
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I think the last time this was discussed and possible calculations it was said that 10,000 pitches was too low, an average pitch size would be higher than 50. From memory the figures from various posters were anywhere from 5 to 10 million pounds. Where would this money come from, either current reserves or higher something?
But it's all up to the club and they've made their position clear, posted upthread by DK.
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I don't think that an honesty system would work. JVB has posted on a previous thread that he had overheard somebody boosting that they didn't include their children on the booking to save money, also remember that some sites are open to non members and there's nothing to stop somebody plugging in overnight. Unfortunately people who are happy to scam the system do walk amongst us. I wouldn't want site staff having become EHU police.
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Where did anyone say making a profit out of electricity sales?
I was taking about the general profit made from 'each pitch'....ie total profit divided by number of pitches.
all sites make improvements from their profits...or sometimes borrow to make a significant investment...
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Our granddaughter works at Tesco's while at uni and when away from uni and as I have posted before she as a multi-tasking staff member works on the self checkout area and if they are asked to do checks they always have security close by when they as is normally the case some shoppers are caught,and she says it is quite often,
She says if Tesco's could recruit staff they would stop self checkouts as it is quite an easy method of some to get a "cheap shop"
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