Practical towing experience using an EV.
Hi all,
I wondered if anybody has used an electric car for towing and has practical experience they can share?
I've used a hybrid recently and it's fine as of course I can top up with fuel nice and easily.
My main concern is charging on a longer trip. From what I can tell to charge at services, I am likely to need to park the caravan in the 'lorry' area then move the car to a charge point then back again after. I don't think this is possible at all service areas so might require the caravan to be taken to the normal car area, but still unhitched to allow charging.
I can cope with a little extra inconvenience, as I don't expect it to be an issue very often.
Thanks.
Nick.
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The thing that surprises me is that no-one seems to have thought about EVs and trailers at charge points. The main motorway services still don't have enough charge points either.
The car manufacturers haven't thought about standardised charging access on their vehicles.
I'm afraid there is a lack of joined up thinking.
We have had one person on CT speaking about his experiences towing a van with a Tesla and yes, he said he had to unhitch. Charge points need to be drive through, why did no-one think of that?!
If someone can find the LINK to the experience it might be of use?
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I think it's this thread. Wherever it is, the poster was Chocolate Tree.
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Here is a cross post from the other thread on my last trip. See last 2 pages (31 and 32)
I just did a 400 mile round trip with our Bailey Unicorn S3 Vigo max weight upgrade (MTPLM 1550Kg) towing with the Polestar 2 Launch edition. (78kWh, 300Kw). Started in South Northants and headed to Whitby (Great CL - Monks farm - with a view of the abbey). We planned the trip so that we would charge at our natural break points. Left at 8am from home, 1st stop for coffee and comfort was after about 1 hr 45 at Duckmanton (M1J29A). Stopped for about 25 - 30 mins. Long enough to find a cup of coffee, drink it and each a cheeky 2nd breakfast bacon roll. Then headed out again and stopped at Skelton Lakes in Leads at around noon. There we again stopped long enough for each of us to use the loo, buy some lunch and eat in the van. About 40 mins. At both stops we unhitched to charge and re-hitched to leave - added maybe 5 mins total to the stop. At both stops, we gained more charge than we needed to get to our next planned stop. I.e. we were not waiting for the car to charge, but getting on with resting and refuelling the humans while the car did its own thing. We arrived on site with about 30% charge remaining (60 - 80 miles solo, 30-35 towing). its a 10A CL, but we were able to plug the car in via the van, and charge an additional 15% to 20% each night. At the end of the trip I calculated roughly how much electricity we had used charging the car, and paid the CL owner the extra cost along with the pitch fee. We retraced our steps on the way home stopping for about 30 mins and 35 mins respectively.
On the whole trip we waited to charge the car for exactly 0 minutes. The extra hitch and un hitch took no more than 20 mins in the entire holiday. We spent 0 mins looking for or filling up at a fuel station. 400 miles of towing + about 200 miles of touring around while there cost the princely sum of about £50. The 400 miles of towing in my PHEV or the XC90 that I had before that would have cost about £140 in diesel. The local touring an additional £40 to £50. I saved on three trips to the fuel station, each being around 20 mins (as I would have had to go out of my way to find one).
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There is an increasing number. Lots of the new EVs are being homologated for towing. Mine can tow 1500Kg and has a towing range of about 130 miles. I got mine absolutely knowing it could tow, and that I planned to use it for such, even though I knew the range was less than that on my previous ICE tow vehicles.
That is partly because in my ICE I always found myself stopping for coffee and a break after about 2 hours. 2 hours towing is about 100 miles, so my target for towing range with an EV was 100 miles. Then the car could charge while I recharged my own batteries, It works out pretty well...
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That is partly because in my ICE I always found myself stopping for coffee and a break after about 2 hours. 2 hours towing is about 100 miles, so my target for towing range with an EV was 100 miles. Then the car could charge while I recharged my own batteries, It works out pretty well...
Surely, as more EVs get on the road the chances of not being able to immediately get a re-charge en-route will increase markedly. You may have to wait your turn in a queue. Your coffee breaks may get longer and longer.
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Well - yes and no, for several reasons.
1) The fossil fuel companies know that the end is nigh and are moving to EV charging (BP and Shell both have their own charger brands now). In order to have happy customers the number of chargers and charger locations is increasing all the time. Will it keep pace with EV sales - maybe maybe not - but that is probably not an issue because
2) as new EVs come to the market, the range is improving, and the charging speed improving. I only ever charge my EV in the public system when I am on holiday or doing an unusually long journey. Otherwise it's charged at home over night. My solo range is >200 miles from 90%. I don't even fill the battery to 100% routinely as it prolongs life and is simply not needed for me. Most folks are the same, their car really only does a few hundred miles a week, and those folks will only ever go to the public charging locations on the odd occasion, like me. Sure there are 300 and 600 mile a day road warriors, but they are not normal (as much as anyone might claim they are).
And with faster charging cars (the new Hyundai Ionic 5 and Kia EV6 can do 10% to 80% in about 20 mins), the dwell time on a charger gets shorter and shorter.
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Thats true, but they are 7kW chargers. That is the standard speed for a home charger, and not intended for rapid charging at all. The Osprey chargers I used in Duckmanton was 50kW. next to it were two Instavolt 120kW. At Skelton lakes, the 6 Ionity chargers are 350kW.
My car will do 10 to 80% on 50kW in about 45 mins. On the 120 charger, thats about 35mins. On anything above 150 it's about 30mins.
Its not free on those chargers - but then neither is petrol...
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CT-thanks for your(at the coal face) input it’s very illuminating👍🏻
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Where will all the electric come from to keep up with demand from all these chargers? And if we do provide enough windmills & solar panels how are we going to supply it to our houses etc using the existing infrastructure..... we're gonna need a bigger cable! (or 3) When there are only a handful of high output chargers on your estate the existing system will manage but when we all want at least 1 (in reality Dad will want 1 as will Mum and so will the kids when they all want a charged car for work/college the next day) .... the system will fail. The theory sounds great but I suspect that in practice it won't be as rosy as they try to make it sound.
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I agree with you as I may have posted before, Another dog walker at home is a retired CEGB engineer, and he says most of the infrastructure in the UK is extremely old and will never cope with what is going to be expected of it.
, One of the "bright ideas"? is to use lamp post supplies and to fit charging points to the posts ,and as he says in our area a lot of the cables will need replacing as they coming up between 50 &100yrs old and are not expected to power the lights (even with the LED heads now fitted) and then also to charge EVs over night,
When at FM site some weeks ago the supply to the site and the park went down, and the men that had to splice in a piece of cable to repair the fault , said that it is getting more common, to have to keep patching cables because of the add power hungry equipment that is being used
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Whilst I agree that the number of public charging points is probably increasing I doubt whether it is at the same rate as the increase in vehicles needing to use them. Will those needing to charge up on a journey be happy to wait in a queue for 30 or 60 minutes or more. The answer is probably yes, for the first time, more frustration the second time and dummy out of the pram the third time, thinking, if not saying outright, "I could have been at my destination by now 'in the old days'".
Reading and listening to comments from some people with EVs I can't help thinking there is an element of "Emperors new clothes". Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike the idea of EVs, providing the price is acceptable and that the charging infrastructure is all in place. I can't see it being so in my lifetime.
The repair speed, if an EV sustains an electrical fault, must be more acceptable. For example, my nephew has been told he won't see his £70,000 Jaguar E Pace for about six weeks whilst they sort out his charging problem. At present it appears that there is a great shortage of trained technicians who have to go from dealer to dealer assessing problems then ordering parts and returning at a later date to carry out the work. Nephew isn't a happy bunny !
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ED, it’d be best to ask that in 10 years or so as no one can do anything other than guess at this stage, not even Govt ministers because the capacity & the ways it will be delivered is still being planned & built👍🏻
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but in less than 10 years the powers that be want to stop the sale of ICE only cars .... will those of us with a large twin axle just go & buy a diesel Transit/Sprinter?
I'm not opposed to leccy cars, but can't see that they are the answer to all our transport problems ..... I don't have an answer to saving the planet either.
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There is nothing in law to stop you buying whatever you want prior to the sales being banned👍🏻. It ain’t up to you or me to make it work ED we will do what we want to until we can’t.
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What an interesting situation we find ourselves in. Governments are pushing the car industry for electric vehicles and they are starting to produce vehicles that could in theory meet the majority of our needs. The Hyundai Ionix 5 will tow up to 1,600kg, and looks rather nice, so fine for must of us, but what about the infrastructure to support it. It is not there and as we can see from above shows no signs of getting there. Prices are even starting to come down but who will make the jump to buy such a vehicle?
Colin
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Again-I don't make the rules, telling me the rule makers are messed up without joined up thinking is something I’ve known most of my life🤷🏻♂️. In short-you are preaching to the converted.
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Will not the sneaky just use a 13amp socket and take longer, thus avoiding any potential tax? If all electricity is taxed then it penalises those who already have paid VED
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Taxation should probably change to a pay per mile tax which would be fair, reduce driven miles and congestion.
I see Lexus are bringing out a plug in hybrid which can also self charge, the top of the range Hyundai Ioniq is reported to be capable of towing 1600 kg, solo is around 300`neither will be cheap!
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"Self charging Hybrid" is marketing snake oil speak for "Ordinary hybrid who's sole fuel is fossil based". There is no such thing as a self charging hybrid or a free lunch.
All hybrids (and indeed all PHEV and BEV) recover some energy from breaking, which can be stored in a battery, and re-used to help the car at low speeds. This is a "self charging hybrid". The ONLY means if fuelling one is with petrol or diesel. If you run out of ICE juice, you stop and cannot restart.
Plug-in Hybrids have a larger battery that can be charged via external electricity, allowing the car to run on electricity only. Typically these cars have 20 to 40 miles range on electric only, depending on the car and the drive train used. If you run out of fossil fuel, you can recharge via a plug and get another set of electric miles with no use of the fossil element at all.
Range extender BEV (The BMW I3 REX, and Vauxhall Ampera) have an electric drive train only, with some 50 - 90 miles range, with the option to generate additional range using a fuel driven onboard generator. The engine never drives the wheels directly.
A full BEV has only an electrical input, no fuel tank, no oil, no engine, zero tail pipe emissions (as it has no tail pipe) so no VED, and will have a range of between 30 and 300+ miles depending on the specific car and model you buy. These cars ALL "Self charge" by recovering energy from breaking .
I think you are spot on about a "per mile tax" or "road charging" likely to come in for all cars, on top of whatever existing taxation is in place (VED or fuel duty).
Charging folks tax for electricity used to fuel a car is extremely unlikely. Smart chargers are being made smart to allow for demand based pricing of electricity, not taxation. The idea is that electricity does not have a "fixed" price, but costs more to use when demand is high. This is not a new idea, as Economy 7 tariffs have been around for years. Octopus energy have a set of smart tariffs (Go for low cost 4 hours between 12:30 and 4:30 am) and Agile which follows the 30 minute market rate for electricity.
The idea is you charge more when demand is high, and less when it is low, allowing users to select the cost of their purchase based on need. I always try to charge over night in my Go 4 hour window as it is 5p per kWh vs 13.5p per kWh during the day.
The agile tariff reflects the real electricity peak rate of 35p per kWh between 4pm and 7pm each day, but can drop to a fraction of 1p or even go negative (be paid to use electricity) over night.
But with a smart charger that supports Vehicle to Home, I can also choose to use some of the stored energy in my car battery (charged up and paid for over night at low cost) to run my home during the high cost period during the day.
Looking at my smart meter data for yesterday (Sunday), I can see my home used 22.7kWh of electricity for £2.36, 10.8 (54p) of which was charging my car. My car holds 75kWh of usable electricity in the battery pack, enough to run my entire house for about 6 days.
If I could move all of my electricity buying to overnight, or whenever the smart meter told me was the cheapest (lowest demand) time, I could store that energy and run my home with it. The UK (and world) would need less energy at peak busy hour, have a flatter (easier to manage) demand curve, and have less stress on any given element as the generation, grid and local distribution would be far far more predictable.
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Realist!!! HMG still arguing over how to replace the billions of VED , VAT and duty when we are FORCED to ditch our ICEs. It would b interesting to know how many of the EV purchases are being done by companies, using the tax breaks to encourage (or make) their employees drive EV's.
Mileage tax alone will never cover the gap. Not only are HMG incapable of publishing a viable and costed plan for this pie in the sky target, but whilst doing nothing but talk about it they are in the process of destroying the values of our existing cars and caravans.
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No-one is being forced to ditch their ICE. You can keep it as long as it is viable and you want to. It's simply a ban on new sales.
Why would mileage tax not cover the gap? Lets say that 80p in the cost of £140 litre of diesel is tax and VAT. If your car does 45 MPG, you get 10 miles per litre. So charge roads at 8p per mile. Gap closed.
Realistically though, it will start out smaller than that, more like 1p per mile, and be index linked or more in some way. Drive 10,000 miles a year its £100. Next year its £200 etc. All cars will be subject, so those cars that pay no duty today, will start to make up the gap.
VAT will still be charged on electricity (5% at home, 20% for business) so there will be a transfer of tax (VAT) on fuel to tax (VAT) on electricity. And if you set road pricing to cover different vehicles differently, (more for a van or truck, less for a motorbike or super mini car), then you also cover the difference in vat collected due to efficiency of the vehicle
I can understand how the value of your car might be damaged, as the desire to have an expensive polluting ICE falls away (though second hand prices are at an all time high right now), How is the value of your caravan being destroyed?
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I’ve just got a plug in hybrid that will tow 1500kg ,Combined with the engine it will give 200+ bhp. So ample power
my plan is to use the external 13A socket on the van on site and limit the charge current to 6A or possibly put it to 10A overnight once we’ve finished with the current heavy things for the night like the kettle etc.I know towing I’ll be using mainly the engine on long runs. But that stops me having to search for charging points en route.
That should give us enough electric for running around during the day.
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you do realise there's a charge to do so .... ??
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And this works fine from my perspective. My only gripe with this model is its very expensive for full BEV cars. There is a limit to how much electricity can actually be consumed by a car, that is imposed by the connection via the 'van. As Proterra says, you really have to watch what is plugged in and how much you are drawing in order to not trip the bollard. I totally get being constrained to charging via the van to keep the site wide load at bay - and thats fine. I just object to the cost.
For PHEV, £2 per charge = 200p. At 20p per kWh = 10kwh, charging at a max of 10A (that all a standard 13A granny lead will pull) = 2.3Kw = 4.3 hours charging to consume the £2 fee with 10kWh. If electricity is 15p per kWh, that number goes up to 5.79 hours and 13kWh of juice.
My PHEV only uses about 10Kw total, so I am happy that £2 covers costs and helps the club
However for a full BEV £8 charge the same maths works out at 40kWh and 17 hours for 20p/kWh or 53kWh and 23 hours at 2.3Kw charging. Basically you need your car plugged in all day at the maximum possible rate to get close using the payed amount. If you have any intention of using the car while on site it's just not achievable.
To be clear - I don't object to paying and already offer CL owners payment for electricity used. Its the imbalance between PHEV and BEV that annoys me.
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