Caravan build quality
Comments
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Hi BB & DK,
I have intentionally tried to keep out of this one, but have failed! My view, on the MH side, given that you are both MH'ers, about this quality thing is this:
the great MH marques from Germany are just like the new mini, merc, bmw and bentley; well made but not perfect but very expensive and you have not added any optional extras yet! And because of the low spec you will need lots of them ££££££s.
The quality of good old GB stuff is slowly getting better and we may have to thank our old enemies for that, but at least our GB OEMs provide a high spec product at a reasonable price.
we the customer have therefore got a choice; home or away and what can you afford.
for me, it was easy. I could no more afford an expensive poor spec hymer or carthago than I could a bentley. Simple as that!
my swift kontiki 635 is of a very high spec, reasonably built for what I paid for it, compared to the equivalent german model and has never let me down, and it gets used a lot. I have 14 x 13amps sockets, the germans have one or two, I Have ALDI heating, say no more, I have the same italian engine as many foreign models as well. I also have a lot more space and comfort for my money!
Happy travels....
BillC
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So failed on the "quality" issue then, just like the stuff Carlight that low end English builder was churning out
.Three front windows, where others can offer one large panoramic one is good enough reason to walkaway in itself for me, but accept it is a personal thing.
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Bill, as you say, it's horses for courses, but all is not what it might seem and you would be surprised at how 'affordable' our two German vans have been......much, much less than any list prices....
one thing to remember, even within a manufacturer like Carthago or Hymer, any A-class, model for model, will be around £8k more than the equivalent 'std Fiat cab' model....so comparing an A-class against a typical UK van will see a large price difference anyway.
a more relevant comparison might be against non A-class versions.
however, for info, I bought a 2014 stock van in Jan 2015 (so it already had all the bells and whistles) and I also got my sat system, inverter, wind out awning, garage bike rack, 2nd battery, solar system, 2nd TV all thrown in as part of the deal...
in total, with the extras and discount, my saving was 'very significant'
meaning the van was a 'considerably' cheaper than a top line Autotrail....two years later, in Jan 2017 when we felt we wanted to move to a smaller, slimmer, lighter van, I chose another stock vehicle (a 2016 model) from three, so selected the most suitable interior colour and spec.
again, all the kit from the first van (sat, solar, bike rack in garage, another twin battery set up, 2nd TV, inverter etc) was transferred over to the new van (which, this time already had an awning, and in dash Satnav) all FOC and as part of the hand over.
in fact, they didn't bother to swap the 2nd TV, they just installed another new one and wired the whole Sky system up to my requirements.
the only thing I paid for was a Thetford oven (as a Tec Tower system was not available on the smaller van) and they did a great job on the install.....
and the cost to change.....much less than even the savings I made on the first van......
so, I have been very happy with the vans, fantastically happy with my dealer who I keep in touch with and, should I ever look to change again (however, the current van is spot on and seems to do exactly what we ask of it, so no inclination yet) I'm sure we would deal again.
OTOH, at the time I was looking for the first Carthago, I tried very hard for a Hymer at Highbridge (on our doorstep) but the deal just wasn't there, and again for the 2nd Carthago I spent much time with Chelstons (recently appointed dealer, and again very close by) but we were never going to 'get there'.....whereas my dealer didn't mess about and realised we were genuinely in the market and we were 'on track' straight away.
so, it is possible to buy a specced up German A-class van at a similar price to a mid-high end AT....so, yes, it is horses for courses....
for us, our choice was to to go for something that we felt offered the great build we were looking for but also at a price we could be comfortable with.
BTW, I'd like a Bentley, too, but it ain't gonna happen, lol
i know you love your van, and we had two great Swifts that did us proud over 6 years. We also looked at the 625 at the NEC when it came out and liked it, but at just over 8m we felt we would be moving in the wrong direction size wise...
i love your posts and your enthusiasm for the hobby....take care and enjoy......which I know you do...
BB
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Agree with your balanced and thoughtful views BillC, and I'm on my third German A-class having given up with Swift in the 90s. The furniture in my two 90s Swifts was more robust than the furniture in my current Hymer, built so the van stays within 3500kg - design is excellent. I did get a roof mounted swimming pool on the inside of my Swifts; so far, no damp with my German vans. UK vans seem better built than in the past but I don't have a need, yet, to switch back.
BB is also right in that continental vans in this country now cover most of the traditional UK price ranges and more. The trouble with continental vans remains the currency fluctuations. Continental manufacturers can fix the prices for the season which avoids the unknown for that year but some years the vans look expensive and in other years, competitively priced.
BB - all my three German vans have been stock purchases. We get a few things we don't need as a result but live with that as the overall cost, spec and layout was always OK and included everything we did want. I don't want to be sat dreaming of my new van being delivered in x months and then more delays.
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A, good post, yest wanted to see what I was buying....and get a big chunk off for having this year's model not next year's...
layout was what we wanted, choice of three to get the best matching spec....two weeks to put all the new kit on and to do the change over of existing kit.
train fare up and back, picked up from the station, a couple of shakedown nights locally....useful as the oven switch needed adjusting and was cutting off the gas.....two minute fix.
9k miles so far this year, loving the easy drive, great view and at 6.4m X 2.12m can (within reason) park it pretty well wherever a PVC can go.
good thread, the quality/value equation is always a good one to discuss, it does seem however, that there are plenty of UK caravan buyers who are still suffering the things that shouldn't happen on a £20-25k purchase.
bouyant sales aren't stopping manufacturers in their tracks as its all too easy at the moment....
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Hi BB & A,
After these recent posts the idea of buying from stock is growing on me.
All I need to do is work on the dealers to see if I can get what I want. I have to have an auto gear box and single beds that have the option of being a double, so that might limit the availability, but I am excited about the upcoming exercise. And, as BB says, I do love the van I have now so I cant lose.
You might think "then why is he looking", the reason we keep looking is because my OH wont drive this one because of the length and if we had a 6.5m van, like you BB we could keep it at home.
Lets see how it pans out over the next year. Thanks for the posts, good reading.
Now in Ashwell CCS, Hertfordshire, on way to big family re-union at Ferry Meadows, Peterborough, for 10 days. Rain just started!
BillC
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So was my tongue, Boff
But I have had criticism of our Hymers quoting the single front window, even when just a bedroom, as a clear sign of low end quality. But the "RR" of UK caravans by their own claim were Carlight, which had just that as a dominant design feature.
I concluded those individuals struggled to differentiate between true "build quality", and "style", two aspects that can be very far apart.
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We saw one of these at the Goodwood festival of speed a few Years ago. Towed by a Range Rover Vogue, as I recall. The car driver was very aloof but the wife, heavily decorated with gold jewellery was quite chatty and justifiably proud of their rig. They had a bit of difficulty finding a spot big enough to park it, despite their motor mover, with auto engagement naturally. The huge A frame was bereft of bicycles too. I've seen pictures of Bernie Ecclestone’s luxury RV too, though his female companions have tended to be much younger. So I guess that it’s a case of ‘if you’ve got it, flaunt it’. I guess that they had space to park it at home too.
However, I rather doubt that many C&MC members would seriously consider such opulence, when they could, instead, be flying to the Bahamas in their private jet.
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Just a comment. We have have bought new caravans for the last few years and found the build quality is absolutely rubbish. Being specific Eldiss and Swift. Nothing to choose between them. However the Club when testing them never gets a Friday afternoon special to test and comment on. Just wondering why?
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the 'tests' in CC/CCC mags are hardly that....nearer 'cosmetic observations'...
the upholstery is often 'nice', the decals often 'revised for the new season'...and that's about it...
surely no one would buy a caravan or MH based on one of these 'in depth' articles..?
Practical Motorhome (or Caravan) is almost as limp, with only MMM becoming even slightly objective....
every publication too much in bed with the manufacturers who advertise heavily there.....far too cosy to give customers the dose of realism they need...
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Like many people I love the idea of a German build motorhome but so far I have been unable to find any non UK made model with parallel lounge seating which converts to a large double bed. I keep searching but so far the only model with the layout which works for us is the Auto-Sleeper Bourton. We had planned on buying the Stanton but it is not quite large enough.
I will keep looking at the German offerings but confess I am not hopeful.
I wonder if the dealer used by Boleroboy is in Somerset. I have visited one Somerset dealer so far and the sales guys seemed disinterested. Perhaps it was a bad day. So far I have not been to Highbridge, Chelston or Davan.
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As B Boy says if the people doing the "reviews" were to print an full bells and whistles review,they would be in trouble from there "bosses as the manufacturers would not supply their products to them,
Several of us watched a review on a caravan on a club site,(we had had a sneak look when delivered)and at no point did the reviewer mention on publication some very glaring non user friendly design faults that we had noticed and were mentioned to and noted by the reviewer,
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Q, if I was to pick some sort of foreign 'competitor' to the Bourton, it might well be the Frankia 640SD.
same length (6.4m) same type of washroom across the rear, with kitchen a little more forward, large open lounge BUT it will have two rear travel seats and a table, which can slide on rails fwd into the cab if required.
also, whilst it is possible to use the lounge as a bed(s), is isn't the (primary) German way, so there is a proper lengthways double in the A-class cab that swings down low and can be accessed without a ladder or step...
this really is a proper, four season, double floored, fully winterised, top line A-class which doesn't have a fixed bed...
so, a similar layout (large front lounge, rear washroom) but executed differently.
id be overjoyed to own one, but they aren't cheap......
ps, just looked at PM review online and can be ordered without the table...
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I tend to agree that the build quality of UK vans is generally very inconsistent, but the styling etc is very good.
My ideal caravan would be an alutech body on a new 'non-rottable, non-delamination-proof' floor, on an chassis with a much more, very generous user payload. Then the whole thing should be put together 'immaculately well'.
David
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Thanks for that Boleroboy. I have just had a look at the Frankia. My first thought is that the design looks excellent and even the photos exude quality. I don't think the drop down bed would work for us as as my wife and I have a combined aged of 150 this year and I cannot imagine my wife - being the senior one of us and with a hip replacement - being able to climb in and out of a bed like that. In fact I won't chance showing her the photos or I might put her off the whole idea of a motorhome. In spite of being in the second half of her 70's she is very keen to explore more of France when we finally get the motorhome next Spring.
We both still have our sights fixed on the new Mercedes Sprinter which is due shortly and we hope that Auto-Sleeper will be using it for the 2019 models.
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The issue is expectation of build quality. Its large, its on wheels and goes on the road. I expect it to be a reliable as my other thing that does this, my car. This is not feasible.
I have spent my life working on projects for automotive companies in an engineering development capacity. The caravan world is just not able to deliver automotive quality or reliability. They are just not on the same scale.
To put this into context, the engineering costs for a new mid segment car is about half a billion pounds, for one vehicle type. This is bigger than the total turnover of every caravan manufacturer in Europe. The quality department of every major auto producer is bigger than the total number of employees in the whole caravan industry. Every vehicle platform has an engineering development team bigger than the vast majority of caravan companies. A car company will build hundreds of prototypes and test them for 18 moths in hot cold, wet, dry, etc. Caravan companies build half a dozen and run them around locally.
Caravans and motorhomes are built by men in sheds, well not exactly but on automotive scale they are generally similar size to a niche sportscar maker and have similar scale and quality issues.
So could caravans be as reliable as cars, yes. The correctly designed, developed, and validated caravan will be totally watertight and never fail. Cant see the £100k mid segment caravan selling that well.
There is no excuse for poor build quality and I get frustrated at various issues but to be honest I have only owned two vans, both from new and both good. Yes they had issues but the majority were failed components rather than poor build and none of the issues were serious.
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It's not just manufacturers that are at fault, dealers can be held to blame as well. A quick tale, buying a new Adria i rang a couple for a price to part ex a 2006 Bailey which I knew had damp. Agreed a deal with one, called next day to pay deposit to be told they'd changed their minds and didn't want it. Next one offered £3,000. Called me back to take deposit to be told they'd taken a similar model in part ex so reduced the offer to 2000. I was still happy so went ahead. Turned up to collect, they then reduced the off to 1000 as it was worse than they thought!? I was now 160 miles from home being told that my caravan was unsafe, shouldn't be towed etc etc. Felt seriously angry but after increasing offer to 1250 we cut our losses and paid up.
It's now listed on their website for 4000 with nothing having been done to it, just says trade sale with damp!
Adria is brilliant by the way!
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A lesson learnt in keeping up the annual services !
We bought a brand new Swift Freestyle S4FB in August 2014, within weeks the front windscreen developed a 30cm split through the middle. It was repaired under warranty in 2015. It was serviced in 2016, but as we moved home & didn't use it in 2017 ; it wasn't serviced. This year we have noticed a large crack in the rear panel on the roof (about 30cms long) with a lot of smaller hairline cracks, from the joint with the roof panel.
The van is stored with a cover over it , in a waterproof barn. Swift say that as I havn`t had it serviced properly ( in accordance with the warranty instructions) this is not covered by the 10 year bodyshell warranty. I`m not sure how sure the annual moisture test would have prevented the cracking, but we now face a repair bill from the dealer of nearly £3000. Not quite what I was expecting of a 4 year caravan, properly stored under cover. Very unimpressed with build quality.
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New Lunar
We bought a new Lunar collected on the 08/01/2014 it was a dealer special but that was all that was special about it. The day we picket it up we had a list of 7 thing's wrong which to be fair to the dealer he did eventual sort out but it took 4 month's waiting for part's to arrive from Lunar.
Since then we had 2 leak's within 3 month's of it being new and every year when it goes in for it's annual service they find more damp,it goes in next week for service front window leaking,side window leaking and floor delaminating.
When it was new i sent Lunar 4 email's to which they only replied to the last one and that was to tell me they do not talk to the general public if i have a problem with the caravan i must take it up with the dealer.In other word's they don't care as long as they have your money.
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despite the continuing shoddy build of caravans, the customer's contract is with the dealer and it is he that must address any complaints.
however, a consistent lethargy from the big brands concerning deep rooted quality issues does them no favours and forums are awash with 'I'll never buy a xxxxx again' threads....
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Too true David,
After owning 5 T.E.C. 1 GEIST 1 Hymer we " tried " a Coachman VIP, that lasted 3 months, we've since had 2 more Hymers and as I've said many a year " they'll never win the best looking 'van on the rally field " " but boy are they built better " !
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can't caravans be light(er) yet remain watertight?
agreed, mixing more appliances/gizmos without increasing weight can be tricky, but with the use of modern (lighter but stronger) materials it can be done.
what was evident in the earlier photo was nothing to do with extra kit or weight, merely the hopeless attempt at screwing a roof to a sidewall.
with this level of skill/interest in producing a simple box of some integrity what chance to prospective owners have....
this is basic stuff, isn't it?
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