The Amended Red Guide re User owns cylinders!!
I now post the relevant section of the NEW AMENDED RED GUIDE regarding the use of user owned cylinders. This should be sufficient to convince the most hardened cynic of it’s existence! The technical dept at East Grinstead should now be in possession of the facts. As caravanners, we should welcome this new Guide with open arms. Hopefully, this will start a new era for cheaper gas- much cheaper gas! Safefill complies with both these requirements. ✔️ I cannot speak for any other brand. Thanks.
Portable LPG cylinders
22) Gas supplier owned cylinders: Cylinders supplied on an exchange empty for full basis are owned by the gas supplier and are designed to be filled by weight. It is a requirement that only the owner or their authorised filler may refill the cylinders.
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GUIDANCE ON MANAGING THE RISKS OF FIRE AND EXPLOSION
Customer refillable cylinders
23) Cylinders that are designed to be refilled by the public should be of a type that is recognisable by the forecourt operator and incorporate the following safety features:
− Be fitted with an overfill prevention device, that prevents the cylinder being filled
above 80 % of its capacity.✔️
− Have a fill valve compatible with the nozzle of an autogas dispenser.✔️
It is recommended that where the refilling of cylinders is being allowed a sign headed 'Cylinder filling operation' covering the responsibilities of the filler be displayed on or adjacent to the autogas dispenser(s). The sign should include the following:
− This site allows the filling of cylinders specifically designed to be filled from an
autogas dispenser.
− Do not fill any cylinder that has suffered any damage or that is out of test date.
− In the event of a leak or overfilling – stop filling immediately and notify the site
operator.
Should a forecourt operator choose not to allow these cylinders to be filled on their premises, it is recommended that:
− clear signage is displayed on or near the autogas dispenser(s) stating that
cylinders may not be filled,
− their personnel are trained to refuse the refilling of cylinders.
To enable cylinders that are designed to be filled by volume to be filled from autogas dispensers, the forecourt operator should comply with the requirements of DSEAR in that they have:
− Carried out a risk assessment then implemented suitable and sufficient control
measures.
− Trained their staff to ensure that the cylinder is placed level and upright before
authorising the dispenser.
− Trained their staff to recognise the incidents that may occur during the refilling of
cylinders and the action to take as the result of an incident involving a cylinder.
A supplier or manufacturer of cylinders that are designed to be refilled from autogas dispensers may provide means by which a forecourt operator may recognise their cylinders.
Additional information is available from the UKLPG.
LPG containers attached to vehicles
(24) LPG containers that are securely attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking purposes may be filled from the autogas dispenser on the provision that they:
− remain in situ for filling;
− are fitted with an internal device to physically prevent filling beyond 80% of the
full capacity; and
− have a fixed filling connection external to the vehicle.
Adaptors for autogas filling
25) Dispensers on UK forecourts are fitted with nozzles to connect onto vehicle 'bayonet' filling connections, however vehicles, especially from continental Europe, may have other designs of filling connections so drivers then carry adaptors so that they can fill at any forecourt autogas dispenser.
26) Site operators should have a policy in place for the use of adaptors, this could be that the use of adaptors is not permitted. Alternatively, should they have satisfied themselves that they have identified and implemented the control measures that address the additional risks associated with the use of adaptors, they may consider their use. Their policy should be included in the training of forecourt staff.
Comments
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Still making folks lives better & easier Merve👍🏻, power to you👍🏻👏🏻👏🏻😎
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Thanks Merve.
Lets hope that more garages with LPG pumps allow filling like Morrisons.
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Safefill cylinders have a 'bayonet' filling connection valve, no adaptor needed.
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Can’t wait to see how UKLPG are going to squirm and twist to try and stop Safefills being filled! To try and convince campers that you can’t fill cylinders! The games up- the war is lost- get on with it UKLPG and issue the new Sheet 26 which aligns with the Red Guide. Let’s have some clarity from you!!
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Most of us shared your belief too👍🏻😊
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I've always been with you mate, I applaud your commitment and desire to help others
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I find this question incredible. Because as it stands at the moment, you have the amended red Guide saying it’s now permissible and Sht 26 saying it’s not. (filling cylinders) They still display the OLD sheet on the web. As the UKLPG is made up of staff from Calor, Flo etc it’s not surprising that they are dragging a leg on this. They want to keep their rental flood of money coming in!!
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The Red Guide does not give 'permission' Merve and never did ban the sale of LPG for whatever form of filling. The guide is issued to its trade association members as a means of giving advice on safety 'at the pumps'. What the new version of the Red Guide does do is to finally address the safety aspects of LPG filling with what it considers to be best practice. Basically it says IF you supply gas this is what we recommend.
The UKPLG is a separate trade body that also offers advice to its members.
Regardless of either of these trade associations' views fuel stations are, and always were, at liberty to serve LPG. This remains subject to the individual stations Risk Assessment as has long been the case.
Whether the new Red Guide will prompt many more service stations to permit refillable gas cylinders to be used on their premises remains to be seen since the only thing preventing refilling was the decision made by the station owners which would be based on their Risk Assessment and presumably on anticipated sales to owners of refillable bottles.
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Thanks to you Brian. The bile and poisonous replies the last time I broached this subject was one of the reasons I stopped posting. I will not be drawn into any more pointless argument as what I told the members last time has been proved correct and truthful. If the detractors want to go on about unimportant details, then let them. The facts are these-
1. The Red Guide HAS been amended to include user owned cylinders.
2. It’s Safefill we have to thank for their tenacity in explaining how their cylinder works and getting these amendments through. The work they have put in has been incredible believe me!
3. UKLPG has rewritten Sheet 26 but have not released it for the reasons I have expressed above. I know much more than I am prepared to recount here but the fact is that they HAVE to issue a new Sht 26 to make sense of the New Red Guide or rather make the Red Guide make sense of what they say!
The days of high cost and unopposed rental charges imposed on a captive leisure public are being dented daily. The fight continues from the big boys from their dirty tricks departments but the facts are that because of Safefill (no one else) we all now, whether you use a lot of gas or not, have CHOICE. I am with the little guy- not multi million pound businesses. Thanks to the CMHC for this Forum. It allows important information like this to get out and to quell rumours and untruths put out by the uninformed.
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If retailers who supply LPG at their stations follow the guides advice and put up notices to clearly indicate whether they permit refilling of cylinders that would doubtless be useful to such customers.
Nobody has called you a liar Merve and those posts that you describe as poisonous and full of bile certainly were not. Please don't keep attacking others for their thoughts Merve. Best wishes however from me.
Alan
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These discussions have proved very useful to myself in making a decision. As ET states it does not give permission and stations are still at liberty to refuse. When we get a motor van I fully intend to have refillable LPG as we intend to use it occasionally off grid. It will be a system with an external filler however. From what I have read and talking with those who have them, these are much less controversial.
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I would have thought that, with a motorhome, a refillable LPG tank with a fixed external filler might be very convenient giving the ability to top up LPG when also refueling the base vehicle. Have you thought about what tank volume you might require Steve?
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The drawback being that you have to find a garage selling lpg as opposed to being able to exchange a conventional bottle at sites, Calor dealers and so on. In some areas garages selling lpg are few and far between.
The other drawback with underslung tanks is the difficulty encountered at some ports and the Tunnel in isolating the tank. Some have remote isolator switches, some not.
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Seems a sensible and convenient size Steve. I suppose that if the MH is parked up for the day off site whilst you go off for a walk etc that you may wish to use LPG for the fridge which would increase your usage compared to being sited on EHU with a caravan
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I would just like to say a big 'thank you' to Merve for putting me onto Safefill through this forum. I managed to get one of the last ones available in the north of England a couple of months ago (I hope production has started again) and I haven't looked back. I have a garage about 5 miles away that refills it and that will do for me. I can easily make sure we always go away with a full cylinder, so searching about for other suppliers isn't an issue for me.
I bought it - not to save money on gas (we don't use that much) - but to save weight in the van and have now ditched the two steel cylinders we previously carried in favour of one 7.5kg Safefill.
Very pleased!
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Should a forecourt operator choose not to allow these cylinders to be filled on their premises, it is recommended that:
− clear signage is displayed on or near the autogas dispenser(s) stating that cylinders may not be filledThis seems to suggest that puting up a couple of stickers to say "NO" is a much more cost effective option than all the ongoing training and monitoring to permit self-fill, especially considering the very low increase in LPG sales that might occur.
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Thanks for the update Merve and for sharing.
I have feedback from our Technical team, please see below:
User-refillable LPG cylinders have been available for some years, notably from suppliers such as Gaslow, Safefill and GAS IT. Refilling has been available at a range of outlets including some caravan/motorhome dealers, industrial gas suppliers, LPG outlets and a limited range of petrol filling stations (lists of outlets are usually available from the cylinder suppliers). The widespread acceptability of using user-refillable LPG cylinders at automotive filling stations which have dispensers for automotive LPG has been a long-standing issue, however, with guidance to filling station operators being less than ideal in their ‘bible’ for safe operations, the so-called ‘Red Guide’. Some operators (e.g. Morrisons) have been permitting refillable cylinders to be used (specifically those from Safefill). Others have not permitted such cylinders to be refilled on their forecourts. This has made the situation difficult for those users who are interested in taking up this option to know whether the fairly high purchase price of the equipment will be worthwhile, as ready access to filling stations where the cheaper automotive LPG can be sourced is a major advantage when judging whether the cost/benefit adds up.
Discussions during 2017 with interested parties from across this debate determined improved advice for filling stations. It has taken some while for the authors of the Red Guide to incorporate this into the published version, however. Thankfully, the new version of the Red Guide dated 18 October 2018 is now available, see here. The relevant pages are p61-63.
While this guidance does make it easier for a filling station to permit user refilling of cylinders and habitation fixed tanks, it’s worth noting a few key issues:
· Refilling of exchangeable cylinders (standard Calor cylinders and such like) remains prohibited – these can only be refilled by the cylinder owner, not the end user
· Filling stations are not obliged to offer refilling of user-refillable cylinders, but they can choose to do so if they wish
· Cylinders must meet a sensible specification to ensure adequate safety
· Refilling of fixed habitation tanks, or cylinders designed for refilling in situ is permitted, but only via a fixed filling connection external to the vehicle
Time will tell what proportion of filling stations choose to offer this facility, but hopefully the revised guidance will result in improved access to filling points for those users wanting to take up this technology. Anyone using or considering these cylinders is strongly encouraged to follow all the relevant safety guidance and filling station directions – it’s important that filling stations see us as a responsible sector if we want to see wider provision of filling points.
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