Interesting petition
Comments
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As a caravanner, doesn’t affect me, but why would a petition be the appropriate vehicle to influence a ‘commercial’ organisation? By commercial, I mean it is not a statutory body. Surely, government (local or national) might be an appropriate target for a petition, but the democratic process for a trading organisation is surely via the AGM.
imho, this is likely to be a waste of time and energy by someone, for above reason, and the blindingly obvious economic reasons stayed by previous posters.
it is also potentially divisive for the membership.
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Well I agreed some pages ago that the petition was ill thought out, and lobbying totally the wrong institution. But I did read some of your proposals and thoughts and in the main thought them quite well balanced. But you seem to have decided to ignore your own thoughts in this instance regarding the pipe dream proposals that some less informed individuals dream up, and have forwarded this onto the Club forum.
However, you seem to think that the Club has underused sites, and I wonder (guessing here) if it's the more rural sites that you attribute this underusage to, and you seem to be proposing yourself that doing away with these assets could fund more town/city based park up areas?
This MH owner, who also happens to own a caravan, would not be willing in any shape or form for the true gems of the Club's Site network to be sacrificed to fund featureless park ups, with or without dumping facilities, even if caravans were welcome as well! Contrary to what some have stated, we happily tour towns and cities in UK through the Winter months in our MH. Ok it's not huge, but we knew exactly what we wanted to do with it, didn't want to park it up like a caravan and rely on walking, cycling, or public transport. We do a bit of research around car parks and so far (4 years later) have never failed to find a parking space. (I don't include SE England here, never been, would holiday in a different way if we did.) We aren't interested in spending the night tight up with other units, just to save a few pounds, and have found the network of tiny little sites, CLs, CSs, etc..... more than adequate to put together some great tours. If LAs allowed parking up in existing car parks, overnight say 8pm to 8am, at a minimal charge, then that would be progress. Some do, and we have used them as transit stops. Lobby the service station/ fuel networks to install a toilet cassette dump and water point and that would cover that issue. (Tough luck for those carting huge black waste tanks, but they are rather rare over here)
But leave the precious Club Sites alone.
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It has always been my opinion that Towns and Cities in the UK should follow the lead of France in providing Aires de Camping cars.
That makes sense K
UK Camping organisations in conjunction with local Authorities are the ideal organisations to get the ball moving and I see no reason why representation should not be made to such organisations via whatever method is deemed fit. It will happen and when it does those camping organisations who reject the idea will miss out on much of the Motorhome business, but that is their loss.
That makes non-sense K. The CC (as with C&CC) have some suitable sites close to towns etc. Guess what they have normally spaced pitches on them and because of location they attract MH users. They are not in the business, at present, of converting parts of sites into car parks for MHs. If motorhome over night parking in an aire type setup was considered profitable (given land costs etc in such locations) I suspect that some enterprising person would have taken that up. Agreed that it may make sense for a district council to offer such a facility to regulate MH parking and to attract trade to the local area.
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We need some perspective here, France as a country is close to 4 times the size of the UK with a similar population so of course no problem for the French to provide such facilities. Whereas our highly populated country already struggles for space for basics like homes, farmland etc. The other fact is that land prices in the U.K. are significantly higher than in France. You don’t need to be a mathematician ( no offence Moulsey) to work out that likelihood of this petition being successful is next to nil, unless of course many millions sign it.
As previously stated I am totally against the club being involved in this petition after all they keep telling us they are a non lobbying organisation
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TDA, I nominate this as post of the year. Well said.👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
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UK is very much an end destination, whereas a lot of European countries are enroute as well as end destinations. Unless you take a ferry right round Iberian Peninsula and into the Med!
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The word petition has just a tad of a protest to it in my opinion. Better a 'representation for consideration' through honest and friendly debate.
Pie in the sky I know but how about a joint venture between local authorities and the club to provide motorhome stop offs. That would be win win for all I reckon.
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Have read through this and taken many points on board. Firstly the OP talks of there being many sites in France of the type requested in the petition, France is a large country, they have space for sites near cities. Britain is small, overcrowded and land is valuable. How long before a developer puts in a bid for a site near a town, that bid won't be rejected, we all see the rate houses are being built here. 2nd. I have to agree with the person who said - some people buy large MHs without full research and then complain that they find it difficult to get out and about from sites. 3rd. When no one is using sites much because , apparently, as said by OP we will no longer be able to buy cars that can pull caravans, there won't be a need to book these sites and MHs will then, as you are requesting, be able to just pull in and use them without booking, so no need for these new sites. Lastly, I have read the comments about 'excellent' parking for MHs at Exmouth. However, our local news reports that locals are up in arms about this as they are unhappy that 'the best parking' is for MH users.
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It would be interesting to know if the petition creator, Mike Bevan, is actually a Club member. I have e-mailed him to invite him to take part in this discussion. One flaw with the petition is that there is no way of knowing how many of the signatories actually belong to the Club. On that basis alone the Club would probably not have anything to do with it. As many have pointed out the request is being aimed at the wrong people. Now both Clubs could be more proactive in encouraging local councils to provide more facilities for motorhomers, holding up as a good example the likes of Canterbury. But is the Club in a difficult position here do they want to encourage alternative places for overnight stays when they have their own pitches to sell. Having said all that I think there is more the Club could to as they recognise that motorhomes are an increasing force in UK camping. Don't suppose they is any chance of an official response?
David
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I don't think there will ever be a lack of tow cars. There are too many people who's lives revolve around their hobbies that require them to have a tow car. We have been to a show today and looked at caravans that were built in the 1920s. The caravan club was 100 years old a couple of years back. We are always going to be a nation of caravanners, and towers of various other things too.....ie horseboxes etc.
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Just to debunk the myth that some don't research their motorhomes and therefore end up parking off sites my observations at Exmouth recently showed a variety of vans, large and small, old and new, plus mixed ages. I don't recall anyone saying this was "excellent" at Exmouth, it is an attempt by the local council to solve the problem of excessive overnight parking by some motorhomers. A variety of spaces have been provided, not all on the sea front, parking tickets have to be bought and the council appeared to be doing the rounds keeping an eye on things. No doubt if this doesn't work and there are too many vans it will be reviewed. The main esplanade between the marina and the end section was relatively free of motorhomes. What I didn't like seeing was close parking and generators, all factors that will perhaps have to be reconsidered at some point. it's not something I would consider but I would consider a day out in this way, just as car owners enjoy the same.
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This was the evening view at Exmouth which overnight motorhomers enjoyed and also the view behind!
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That's an excellent summary of the thread so far David.
Either Mark Bevan is a club member in which case one would suspect that he's avoided this forum realising that there would be little support, or he's not a member in which case I would say there's little justification for his directing the petition at the club (It'd be a bit like me starting a petition asking the Conservative party to replace Theresa May with Michael Gove - that's a hypothetical, not wanting to start a political debate!
).It has been interesting to see that this is one thread where there has been pretty much universal agreement - vanners and MHers, home tourers and "over there" tourers - that however worthy the basic aim might be, expecting the CAMC to take up the cudgels is entirely inappropriate.
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Once there is a network of Motorhome Aires in good locations - with fresh water and waste disposal - campsites in less desirable locations will start to feel the pinch. There is evidence of that all across France where the Motorhome revolution has advanced so fast. It's not in this Club's interest as a large scale site owner to push local councils to turn car parks into Aires.
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As far as the start of the motorhome revolution is concern I reckon we in the UK are about 20 yrs behind Southern Europe if not more. Never in 50yrs have I really seen that many towed caravans which originate from a line south of Holland, the vast majority of caravaners from France, Germany, Spain and Italy etc. are of the motorised variety.
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I think the proposal is a non-starter, purely because of the huge capital outlay required, notwithstanding the shortage of available land.
Some LC's will be reluctant to reduce or even provide "overnight" parking or use of their P&R areas.
So that leaves the private sector. Every town I know has a supermarket and the ones I have seen have, in general, huge parking lots, the majority of which are either empty or lightly used if they're open 24/7.
I wonder if it could be possible to approach such establishments to see if they would be prepared to provide a part of their premises for such use?
I'm not a Motorhomer but reading the posts, a waste disposal area and fresh water tap can't be a massive outlay and would easily be recouped in fees and ancillary sales? I'm sure the owners of such establishments would be keen to explore another source of revenue?
Just a thought
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The club already have sites on race courses. The Great Yarmouth club site for instant is on the racecourse and is conveniently located for bus routes and of course a fantastic beach. Whenever I pass the site it always to have more caravans than MH.
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As the owner of an ageing caravan (2009) it still has perfectly good toilet/shower facilities and we prefer (if we use the Club sites at all) non-facility ones. Perhaps the Club could consider investing in more of these as they would be far cheaper to build and run without the shower blocks, laundry rooms, dishwashing areas, information rooms etc. Personally all I want is a pitch, water and electricity and increasingly rarely space to put up the awning.
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this is the aire at St Martin de Ré....just 800m from a World Heritage site.
a simple affair, card/barrier entry, 17 places, €11 in summer (3 nights max) €5 in winter, unlimited stay....water, waste etc...
takes up a tiny amount of space, self funding, no traveller issues, high turn over of vehicles, visiting and then moving on.....a 'typical' town/city provision.
this is run by the council who also run the Municipal site next door....which is around €26 in summer (expensive for what it is, no pool etc)...
i agree that CC probably isn't the best organisation to lobby for the provision of this sort of area....cordoning off a small, barrier limited area of a 'normal' car park seems (physically) the easiest way to provide something like this.....a tap/drain/dump point shouldn't be too expensive.
MH throughout Europe have come to expect services like this in most towns, with the LA recognising that they are well used as they don't provide the expense of (and space taken up by) shower blocks etc of normal sites.
many MH often tour in a linear fashion, moving on much more quickly than caravaners to the next destination, and a parking places and dump point is all that's required.
yes, eventually, some 'arrive at their destination' and pitch in site enjoying the full fat services on offer......pools, showers, restaurants, bars etc....but for the 'journey' (which can take weeks) simple overnight parking will suffice.
in the UK pub stops are great as the infrastructure is there, and there is a custom trade off......meal for a space....
however, the success of the Canterbury aire as mentioned by DK shows there can be an uptake with sensible pricing which helps fund the enterprise.
my own gripe is that many P&R do not allow MH parking.....what does the LA want? .....a touring van to try and park in our towns?
MHers are happy to pay, I am, but for a one night stop I won't pay £25+ for something I won't make use of....
Easy.....we have used many a supermarket carpark in France and never seen a 'traveller' ever....only a welcoming sign inviting us to stay overnight and detwilling what time the bakery opens....
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The crux of the matter, in a nutshell, is the inappropriate targeting of the club with this petition.
Yep, we know the system works over there and I’ve seen no firm objection to it over here. There’s no convincing needed on that.
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Easy.....we have used many a supermarket carpark in France and never seen a 'traveller' ever....only a welcoming sign inviting us to stay overnight and detwilling what time the bakery opens....
Well we certainly get them 'over here'. No idea what the laws are in France in this regard.
Security is stepped up at our local Asda when they are around as well.
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Just had this email from the person who started the petition which may answer a few of the questions raised here.
A few people have asked questions about me in various forum. Here are my personal thoughts on some of the questions.
(1) Am I a member of the club? Yes, I think I have been a member for 16 years or thereabouts, in that time I have been active on and off in my local centre and have served a period on the committee of my local centre.
(2) Have ever owned a caravan? Yes, before moving to a motorhome I owned caravans on and off for about 18 years and have owned six in that time.
(3) Why should the club pay for something exclusive to motorhome owners? I'm looking for the needs of Motorhome owners to be represented on an equal footing to those of caravan owners; I believe they are different and understand how unless you have owned both how this is may be difficult to understand.
(4) Where is the club going to find all this land? I don't think it needs to. Almost every town and village in the UK has carparks, and these are often unused at night. These facilities could easily be turned into motorhomes parking. It would need to be enforced to stop long stays, but in this day and age with applications on smartphones like Ringo, it's not difficult. However, there needs to be a will to make it happen, a voice for the of motorhome community and someone big enough (like the club) to stand-up and have the battle. The petition is raising awareness of the motorhomers needs and asking the club who wants to be recognised as the caravan & motorhome club to be that voice.
(5) What's all this about electric cars and tow vehicles? The UK government recently committed to banning the sale of new conventional cars by 2040. Think about the implications of towing a caravan with an electric car, not a hybrid but a fully electric car! Electric cars have a limited range, I know I drive one, towing a caravan would destroy the range. Yes, battery technology will change by 2040 but long range will come at a premium price, but I suspect there will be shorter range vehicles offering the majority of everyday drivers the best value for money. Vehicle sales to the majority of drivers, who don't own caravans, will impact the second-hand vehicle fleet, and as the average age of a car in the UK is ten years this will affect the availability of suitable tow vehicles.
(6) What's the business case for this? I have no idea, I believe if the club did listen to it's motorhome members it would have to look locations on a case by case basis.
Thanks fir reading my blurb
Mark
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"3) Why should the club pay for something exclusive to motorhome owners? I'm looking for the needs of Motorhome owners to be represented on an equal footing to those of caravan owners; I believe they are different and understand how unless you have owned both how this is may be difficult to understand."
Really? He fooled me with that one as I could have sworn he was proposing the exact opposite - inequality.😮 Am I missing something?
Thanks for posting, MT.
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