Adding CL Hookups where grid power is lacking
Hi All,
I'm a keen CL user, frequenting this type of site far more than the caravan club sites themselves. In fact I was at one in Bognor just last week (although on their driveway rather than the field because there was so much flooding!).
I much prefer sites where there is hookup, as it saves the issues of keeping a battery topped up. I know a lot of people have solar these days, but also a lot don't. Also the Fridge uses a fair bit of gas.
I was chatting to one Cl owner who said it would cost £10,000 to get a power supply to his house strong enough to supply the CL field. he currently only had a standard domestic supply to his house.
So I had a couple of questions for the community:
1. Is this a blocking issue for a lot of CLs - that they don't have enough supply to their property to supply the potential 80 Amps for hookups (or even slightly less if the site is only open in summer and you assume they are not all used at the same time).
2. Would CL users be interested in having hookups designed for mainly charging the battery + powering the fridge, with the occasional kettle boil?
Why do I Ask??
In my day job for a large company, I work as a problem solver and inventor with a number of patents. Outside of work I also like to solve these problems too!
I already have a smart device I fabricated in our caravan which automatically turns off the electric fire when you turn on other high power things like a kettle.. then turns the fire back on afterwards - which I find so handy!
For the CLs I could also design something to solve the problem if it was likely to be popular. it could work like this:
- Everyone gets a normal hookup socket and is allowed say 500W (enough for the battery charger, the Fridge and phone chargers + TV)
- The hookup bollard will sense anyone trying to take more than 500w and lock them out for a period of time. when reconnecting after lockout, if they are still overloading, it might increase the lock out each time, and/or permanently lockout after a certain number of overuses - requiring a button on the hookup post to be pressed.
This can be extended another clever way:
- Three lights on the bollard Red, Amber, Green.
- Red means you are locked out
- Green means you can take 2kw briefly (10 mins) if you want.
- Amber means you can use your 500w but not take more
(someone else is having a 2kw 10 minute session or you had one too recently).
- So basically people are forced to take it in turns to have 2kw.. in 10 minute sessions
each time you've had a session you have to wait some period of time before you can
have another session (your bollard stays amber). When someone else is having a session
again your bollard is amber. When you can have a session your bollard is green.
during amber times you can still have your 500w.
With a design like this the maximum the site will ever draw is 500w x 4 + 2000w
and usually much less - as people can't leave fires or water heaters on because of the 10 minute limitation. It will just be for hair drying, microwaving, kettle boiling. small time loads.
So the maximum demand will be around 17 amps. With the average load being much less.. Probably about 6 amps over night.
This will mean that sites can supply that from the spare capacity on most houses. Also the cost of the electricity used will be a lot less than traditional hookup sites.
For sites with even more limited supply a design could easily be made that worked on a single 13Amp plugtop from the farm. Each van is allowed 400 watts, and the shared peak 10min load of 1500w.
I wonder if my idea would be of interest to CL owners and equally important CL users?
If so I could look into crowd funding it.
Anyhow thoughts if you please!
James
Comments
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I love simplicity and after pitching I just want to do and use what is available to me in my van, I don't want to have to resort to mental arithmetic or thoughts on balancing loads at certain periods in time.
No, it's not for me and as yet due to planning I have yet to encounter a problem, the present system works for me with minimal thought processes involved.
Full marks on the idea though 👍
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Hi Metheven,
Thanks for the reply, it is very useful to hear views on my off the wall ideas. It may well be it is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. That can often be the case with ideas!
I may have made it sound over complex of course, us implementation types can often do that.. talking about the innards of the invention.
In reality as a user you shouldn't have to do any calculations or balancing of loads.
There's a simple rule really - if it makes things hot then the light must be green" no need for maths :-)That this is only for sites that currently offer nothing (due to limitations of their own supply). Not for sites that have ample power to share. so it is a step up from nothing rather than a step back from what we already have.
James
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Yes sadly the cost of installing a hookup is not often just running the power in cable from a house/outbuilding. Sometimes (perhaps often) the premises don't have capacity for the extra load and so it costs CLs too much.
I am kind of hoping that if the idea was to work it would mean more CLs could add hookups at a much reduced cost - if they wanted to!
There's not much money for me to make in the idea (which is why I am happy to share it in the open) because the market is quite small. Its more me being interested in helping solve the issue - if it exists!hard standing - I am quite happy for a bit of grass to rest my tyres on. Equally I don't feel the need for a toilet block. But I do quite like having hookup to keep the battery charged and the fridge running.
James
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It's always good to get your brain in action for a bit of problem solving but I wonder how many of us use solar off EHU as we do? It's a very successful addition to our van and I suspect it has become very popular negating the need for always having EHU.
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I wonder just how much would be saved by the CL owner in installing your system as opposed to a full 10 or 16amp supply to each pitch, jtq.
It does sound rather complicated and would surely need more gadgetry than the usual type of EHU. There would also seem to be more bits to go wrong which would increase repair and maintenance costs.
I'd have thought that when installing the necessary cabling, bollards etc it would be just as well to go the whole hog and put in normal hook up points.
People want all or nothing as far as I can see and I’m with Metheven in not wanting the faff of this. In fact, I’d go elsewhere to avoid it. Sorry.
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I think @Metheven has indeed highlighted that my description is too complex for the users.. I think for the users the question is:
On a site with no hookup currently would you be interested in a hookup which let you do everything except hot things, and then indicated via a light times when you could also do hot things (kettle/toaster/microwave)
This is probably the description from a users point of view ;-)
If nothing else the forum has already helped me phrase the question better!!! very cool.
James
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very true. And that is a point worth considering generally when CLs are considering adding hookup.
I am sure I recall the club quoting how many extra nights a hook-up site gets vs a non hookup one. It would be interesting to hear how this has changed as Solar has become so much more affordable.
Does your solar allow enough feed in to the battery in order to run the fridge on battery over night?
I expect a decent solar install is sufficient to cope with 3 or 4 hrs tv and light usage a night (lets not go off topic on amount of tv watched ;-) ).James
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For me James, I want to do 'hot things' when I decide and not when a time is allocated or allowed. I want my leisure time to be exactly that without added complications.
I am sure there are those out there that do enjoy off grid/semi off grid and perhaps coupled with cheaper pitch prices, could be of interest to them. But as an avid CL user in this country I still look for location with full EHU.
I'm not interested in solar either so perhaps my comments are not needed or valid even. Best for me to let those who do pitch without EHU to comment.
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My answer: No, I’d go somewhere else.
Again, sorry, but I don't see any point in a halfway house and I don’t want to be watching traffic lights each time I turn something on. I’ll use full lekky or manage with battery and SP. I’m afraid this is unlikely to appeal to either camp, neither the EHU users nor the basic CL off gridders.
It's good to see ideas but I think you’re barking up the wrong tree here, jtq.
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No need to be sorry. As long as I am getting a balanced view of the audience then it not being worth while is an equally useful thing to learn!
The cost saving is in the removal of the need to get a beefier feed from the national grid. Small holdings etc often only have a single phase 100amp supply - often not leaving enough power to install at all. The big cost is paying for the electric company to add more power to the premises, not in the cost of the install. As I say the Owner I spoke to was quoted 10k for this. A similar quote came in for our families farm to go three phase. More remote places may get even crazier quotes. That is just from the next property down.
Cost of usage reduction will be insignificant in comparison.
If that is true that people would want 'all or nothing' then it wouldn't be worth while. This doesn't seem to be the case though for example at the subsection of the dorset steam fair we attend. People in our section are desperate to get even a small amount of supply to power their fridges and lights. In turn we are happier there are less generators running!
James
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We use gas to run appliances and heating inc water heating. Solar keeps the battery going, we don't watch much TV. We have solar chargers for small devices and a solar radio etc. I think we're either or, we like EHU, we like solar. Depends where we are but we're not desperate for EHU.
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Cool thanks for the feedback. so you'd be on the fence. No one so far especially interested in the idea!
It may be that the CL consuming community are happy to be off grid and so the need isn't all that strong.
In which case the general business case to add EHU to a site is pretty week moving forward anyway! This might be because solar is being embraced quite strongly. The club might consider doing a survey on this to stop further CLs paying for EHU as the cost is very high and I bet it takes them years to ever recoop it!James
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"Does your solar allow enough feed in to the battery in order to run the fridge on battery over night? "
Don't forget, James, that the fridge cooling element never runs from the leisure battery no matter how the battery is charged.
Perhaps it would be simpler and cheaper for the CL owner to install a silent running genny capable of producing around 50amp to power the hookups. This would also make it legal for the CL owner to sell metered electricity if he wished.
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Brue and DAveCyn have outlined how most 'manage' on a low amp or non EHU site....most who camp this way will have invested in a solar panel and a way of getting their gas very cheaply, usually by refil LPG pump.
this set up 'kills two birds' as the CL owner doesn't have to provide 16A power across the site, and customers who heat water and van, and cook and run fridge with gas also don't need a heavy supply...
a solar panel will charge a leisure battery which in turn allows charging of phones etc, running a TV, water pump, heating fan etc....
i agree with others above, regulating supply on a 'rolling basis' is a bit complex....
if a site (say) installs breakers at a prescribed level (6A, 10A) everyone knows that this will be the amount they have to use whenever they want it...
however, the cost to install EHU (and then restrict it) is the same as installing other levels....so no real saving....
so, for most sites (and therefore, customers) it's all or nothing....EHU at a certain level or none at all...
however, for those who wish to have the flexibility to enjoy all types of sites and supply levels (incl non EHU) the solar panel/refillable gas is the easiest way.
you mentioned that you don't have an SP and you said gas was expensive (it is if you buy it in 6kg bottles) but if you did decide to enjoy more non EHU sites then these two enhancements will free you of EHU (and sites will be a lot cheaper and probably quieter) and of a lot of head scratching over regulating supply....
good post but a bit too complex I feel.....good luck.
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Dynamic Time Division Multiplex does seem a bit complicated for the user to get much enjoyment out of its use.
However, a simple to fit kit that would turn off the heating when the kettle, etc was switched on would be very useful for many on sites, CLs and rallys with low current availabliity And, dare I say, for the heavy current users on the 16 ampere sites!
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I agree with Nav. We would certainly be interested in the kit for switching from one form of heating to another, eg kettle to mircowave oven, mw to heater etc. We would only be interested in a full EHU system.
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I recall having been in a CL in the Cotswolds about 3 years ago and the owner went to great lengths to tell on his site that we had to keep power consumption low as all his bollards were only rated at 10 amps....Later I looked at 3 different bollards on his site and all his mcb’s were clearly seen through the plastic window and all were 16 amp.
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Hi James,
a very interesting idea and discussion, but I'm not convinced that the underlying problem exists, or is widespread enough to justify the development.By way of background, we can see things from 2 points of view:
- We have a busy CL in a rural area with 16A EHU which we successfully power from the same domestic electricity supply as our house.
- We are caravanners ourselves and have used our caravan 'off-grid' for 3-4 days at a time with no problem (and no solar panel or generator).
We've had our CL for over 15 years and every power-outage (apart from a lightning strike) has been narrowed-down to a faulty appliance in a guest's caravan. The underlying electricity supply has not been the issue. We stick to the 5-van rule but are open all year and can be full in Winter months when electricity usage is at its highest.
The other aspect is how your idea might be marketed by the Club or CL Owners to potential guests.
My impression from the questions that people ask when booking is that many think that they need a 16A supply, when the reality is that they could easily manage with 10A (or just their own battery & gas). We therefore stress that we have 16A EHU as part of our marketing.
Whilst I accept that location is often key to selecting a CL, my impression is that CL users fall into two distinct groups, which seems to be a lifestyle choice:
- those who want EHU (and perhaps fear that the world will come to an end if they don't have 16A),
- those who are happy off-grid (and choose non-EHU CLs because they are quieter and cheaper).
These folk tend to have invested far more in gadgetry such as solar panels, generators and wind turbines than it would have cost to stay many nights on our CL at @ £12 per night including EHU.
Many CLs without EHU offer battery charging facilities.
Your suggestion would probably need an extra symbol in the Sites Directory to indicate 'variable EHU', and I think that this would be too complicated for folk who regard EHU as a bi-polar 'either / or'.
The other question is 'does the demand justify the development'? My impression is that newcomers to caravanning expect mod-cons including 'full' 16A EHU and if CL does not offer that, their pitch bookings will be low.
- We get well-above the national average number of bookings for a CL and charge £12 per night.
- Two miles from us, a non-EHU CL (Manoravon) charging only £6 per night, closed after a single season because they only had a handful of bookings in the whole year. I'm not convinced that your 'variable EHU' concept would have been well-enough understood to attract members who think they need full 16A.
In summary - an interesting idea, but if a landowner cannot power 5 EHUs from their domestic supply, it might mean that they have another business that is using the power. The cost of upgrading the supply should perhaps rest with the other business rather than be attributed to the CL. A neighbour was in this situation and it was far cheaper for him to add an extra single-phase supply than change to 3-phase.
Ian Kelly
01691 622951
Holiday@BirchHill.co.ukBirch Hill, The Cross, Ellesmere, Shropshire, SY12 0LP
www.BirchHill.co.ukBirch Hill Farm - an award-winning hideaway in the beautiful lake-lands of Shropshire - exclusively for members of the Caravan and Motorhome Club
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