Towing speed !
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My pleasure, I'm not usually interested in these things Tinny but I was visiting Hull & I saw one in 'Hull City corporation' blue & white colours when there, it piqued my interest seeing MM's bus
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You're welcome Mucker. Handsome looking vehicle, they've done a grand job on it
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I agree entirely that 60mph is a very safe maximum on motorways and dual carriageways and that outfits become unstable above that speed. However I live in North Wales where the roads are predominantly single carriageway. I note that if the 50mph limit is adhered to rigidly the car/caravan acquires a tail of following traffic whereas a very small increase in speed enables everyone to move at a uniform pace.
It is perhaps time to reconsider the 50mph limit for single carriageway roads ?
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What about HGV's, you will still have the same issue if you didn't raise the speed limit for them as well?
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Continental caravans generally have longer drawbars and are, I suspect, more stable than UK vans. As for UK single carriageway speed limits, the current limit is, I suggest, about right. Having recently swapped to a MH, I can now do 60 on said roads but the reality is that often 50 is plenty fast enough and sometimes too fast.
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I assume your MH under 3.05 tonnes then?
But is there some confusion about body types though and unladen weight? Can some one help? (just curious)0 -
im not sure what confusion there is regarding 'body types and unladen weight', merely two things that i can think of....
1) many MH owners dont know the law regarding speed limits and how it relates to unladen weight (rather than the far simpler 3.5t MTPLM). i guess the assumption is that, if the vehicle has a MTPLM of 3.5t then it 'probably' has an unladen weight of under 3.05t.
2) not enough manufacturers give this weight in their literature (many dont even give realistic MIRO information). incidently, my van is 2645kg unladen weight in std condition (clearly stated on the website and the handbook).
based on the above, what may not be understood (and i include myself here) is, do you then add on the weight of the factory fitted options and the dealer fit options to get 'your' unladen weight?
however, i do know my MIRO (including these options) as i had the dealer weigh the van and know it to be under 3.0t, so as this includes fuel, driver, some water, gas etc.....my van MUST be under 3.05t unladen (including extras).
either way, a difficult one to arrive at compared to just taking the fully laden van to a weighbridge.
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thanks for the reply BB, something in last month's magazine prompted me to look at speeds for MH (someone had been caught out I think?) and I was just looking at the gov.uk website with states this unladen 3.05 tonnes weight, which was a surprise to me as I always had heard of the 3.5 limit,then another site which talked about body types, wish I could remember what it was called.
anyway thanks again
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Found it https://www.jerbacampervans.co.uk/t5-t6-speed-limits/
something about T 5 and 6? then looking at your log book?
had trouble following what it meant
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Jerba convert WV Transporter vans....the two latest versions are known as T5 and T6.... the article is just trying to clarify speed limits for Jerba vans which are currently on the road...
confusingly, when it comes to licence groups and allowances, 3.5t is a threashold....for speed we use the unladen weight.
however, ive just been playing with the calculator, and if the 3.5t we all talk about refers to the modern day metric tonne, then this equates almost exactly to 3 Imperial toms, which was probably a speed threashold many years ago....
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sorry, my last sentence should have read....
"however, ive just been playing with the calculator, and if the 3.05t we all talk about refers to the modern day metric tonne, then this equates almost exactly to 3 Imperial toms, which was probably a speed threashold many years ago...
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Thanks BB, when I looked ta the Gov.uk I thought it was a misprint.
Is it that obvious which MH could over the limit (which ever) By size? Do police check?
No motive other than interest
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Trouble is, unladen weight, as defined in UK legislation, isn't even documented anywhere, so I don't know how the powers-that-be can check.. It is neither the same as kerbweight nor the same as the MIRO or mass in service shown on the V5c.
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not illegal in my van, Q, nor many others.
travelling across hundreds of miles of deserted dual carriageway in Spain at 70mph is (IMHO) neither foolish nor unsafe....nor illegal.
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as others have posted (and in other forums, too) the 3.05 t (tonnes?) 'unladen weight' is so difficult to evaluate (when including extras) that its really a moot point...
surely the time has come to make the threashold 3.5t MTPLM as on the vehicles plated weight.
to all intents and purposes, 'most' MH at 3.5t MTPLM will be at or very close to the 3.05t unladen weight....
i dont know what Plod would do in trying to see if a vehicle travelling at (say) 70mph on a motorway were doing this illegally. in law, only stripping back the vehicle, draining it and emptying it of people and chattels will give an idea.....
perhaps why they dont bother....?
equally, two identical smallish vehicles, one plated at 3.5t and the other at (say) 3.650t might weigh exactly the same, have the same unladen weight, say 3t, so could both be driven at the higher limits, yet one driver (of the heavier plated van) needs additional groups on his license to drive it....
conversely, two seemingly identical smalish vehicles, one on the light chassis (ULW 3.05t) and one on the heavy chassis (3.09t, the heavy chassis weighs 40kg more). the first vehicle can travel at the higher limits, the second one, the lower limits.
however, the owner of vehicle one, decides to upplate his light vehicle to 3.650t, where as the other owner chooses to downplate his heavy (4.25t) van back to 3.5t.
now the driver of the 'light van' which can travel faster needs additional license groups, whereas the driver of the 'heavy van' (which is sped restricted) needs no such groups....
having two different measures is far too confusing.
make 3.5t the threashold for license groupimgs and speed limits...surely far simpler?
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interesting post BB, so it is almost impossible to tell? In the MH forums and fraternity (for want of better word) is there a push to change the laws?
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so is unladen weight some throwback to an earlier time now superseded?
I'm going to admit my ignorance what would be the difference between kerb-weight and unladen weight then (really don't know)
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Corners, im not aware of such a push, specifically, merely that most (including the law keepers) dont see how a throwback (yes, im sure you're right there) to commercial vehicles like Ford Thames vans etc, where there was nothing added to them, can apply to a modern liesure vehicle with myriad factory fitted extras, dealer fit accessories, customer fit updates and various large amounts of fluids....
it just doesnt make sense....most just get on with driving and ensure they have the right license groups and, cruicially, arent overweight, including axle weights.
i think this is the area where most can be done to keep things 'safe'..
better magazine testing with real critical appraisal...including the tested weights, better informed customers who can have a meaningful conversation with a dealer when buying a van, and more open and homest input from those dealers to avoid customers buying vans they cant use...
sorry, hobby horse dismounted....
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Continental built vans are usually about 1m longer (compared to Uk vans with the same body size) due to the dynamics of the drawbar. This improves stability at speed massively. Their speed regulations were decided with this as the reference point.
I have a very heavy, very stable tug. I never speed when towing.
I despair at seeing badly matched outfits bouncing from one wheel to the other on motorways with driver being oblivious to the tiny margin for life or death that he is balancing on.
The understanding of the dynamics and handling of vehicles seems to have declined.
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UK GOV definition...
Unladen weight
The unladen weight of any vehicle is the weight of the vehicle when it’s not carrying any passengers, goods or other items.It includes the body and all parts normally used with the vehicle or trailer when it’s used on a road.
It doesn’t include the weight of:
fuel
batteries in an electric vehicle - unless it’s a mobility scooter or powered wheelchairalthough there is no GOV definition for kerb weigh, the one i have found appear to be similar to the above but would have fuel in as it seems to be a state of 'ready to go' (at the Kerb) with no passengers.
again, how this can be determined for a MH im not convinced.
ps....apologies to the OP for straying into MH territory, Phishing's post has reminded me that the OP was about speeding towed caravans...
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Another apology for straying of original topic but need to clarify BB's post replying to Cornersteady. Based on previous experience the information on the gov.uk website is only advice and has no legal standing. Remember the issue about the wrong information on gov.uk about the overall length of a caravan that caused people stress?
So as to the difference in kerbside and unladen weight you have to look at specific legislation for the interpretations (definitions). As an example The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 defines both kerbside and unladen weight. It’s never that simple as other legislation can have different interpretations, plus you can have changes made by case law!
These regulations define kerbside weight as:
The weight of a vehicle when it carries—
(a) in the case of a motor vehicle,
(i) no person; and
(ii) a full supply of fuel in its tank, an adequate supply of other liquids incidental to its propulsion and no load other than the loose tools and equipment with which it is normally equipped;
(b) in the case of a trailer, no person and is otherwise unladen.Then unladen weight as:
the weight of a vehicle or trailer inclusive of the body and all parts (the heavier being taken where alternative bodies or parts are used) which are necessary to or ordinarily used with the vehicle or trailer when working on a road, but exclusive of the weight of water, fuel or accumulators used for the purpose of the supply of power for the propulsion of the vehicle or, as the case may be, of any vehicle by which the trailer is drawn, and of loose tools and loose equipment.0 -
Thanks again for both posts BB
yes - apologies to OP
As you might imagine I keep to the speed limits. The old towcar while adhering to the 85% rule, actually 88% only had 120 horse power (it was 2 litre petrol) so going at 50/60 (when permitted) 'felt' just right but it didn't like hills, I've haven't towed with the new one yet (as it's only just done it's recommended mileage before towing) but it's got 197 bhp and judging by it's solo performance I suspect that things will be different.
But yes I was always being overtaken at 60 by other caravans doing far in excess. I just let them get on with it.
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thanks for the post.
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thanks dwlgll, as clear as mud, with regard to a MH, lol....
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Thirsty though. Much more relaxing to trundle along at 60.
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It’s never been clear with a MH if the unladen weight which matters is that of the original vehicle/cab chassis or of the converted vehicle.
The literature with our last coachbuilt MH stated it’s all up weight as 3500kg, the payload as 450kg and the U/L weight as 3050kg. Therefore, I concluded it’s the U/L weight of the converted vehicle which counts for road traffic law.
Similarly, the figures for the current PVC MH show the same formula. All up weight 3500kg, payload 670kg, U/L weight 2830kg.
(NB. The last two figures are from memory and might not be spot on.)
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