CL Sites
Comments
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At that price even with 100% occupancy every day of the year (never!) the Annual takings without VAT could not exceed £24K. Is a £24K P/A business required to be VAT registered?
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Yes of coarse. A CL can be, but it doesn't have to be. If the CL is part of a larger business the expenditure recovery of VAT can be quite advantageous to the larger business. However the VAT on sales (visitors) is recovered from the visitor.
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I think Ted, at Cholsey Grange, has put some interesting information on here regarding running a CL and he's also involved with the Club and can speak on behalf of CL owners. I've stayed at Cholsey Grange and I also understand the business point of view. We're lucky to have this direct contact on CT and from other CL owners too. How they run their businesses or their enterprises will be varied.
The OP was asking for opinions from members about what they like or would like to see on CLs.
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Thank you all for your comments they have given us food for thought and we also appreciate the other comments as to price etc.
When we started this thread we certainly didn't expect the comments to get quite so lengthy and diverse, just shows you where a conversation can lead to!!
If you're ever this way, please give us a try (as some of you have or are going to)!
Jo & Dave
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What is the limit nowadays for VAT registration?
By the way £16 x 5 x 365 = £29,200😋
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It would have to be a very exceptional CL, in an outstanding location for us to pay £20 per night. But with CLs, we are not looking for miniature Club Sites with everything provided. We have found Farm based CLs, and older established CLs to be excellent value. Many of the farms have the equipment and knowledge on site to carry out much of the infrastructure work required to set up, or expand services.
There does seem to be some variation in charges around the country as well. We have in the past found North Wales rather expensive, but have found some very reasonably priced CLs in South Wales. Both lovely areas. A number of Farm based sites we use have now got planning permission for adjacent extra pitches. We stayed on a very nice one in Shropshire last month. He had put in a further ten seasonal pitches, all with metered electric, and visitors were telling us there was a waiting list for pitches! We paid £15 per night on CL area there, with lovely heated showers, loos, wash rooms, electric included, individual tap and a drain for grey water on each pitch. All HS as well.
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An interesting debate.
Nellie, thanks for explaining the pricing of the site you were using as an example.
I would guess that once they become established, have a good number of decent reviews under their belt and can demonstrate that they provide a better experience than other local competitors they may feel justified in raising their price. At the moment their price is probably artificially low, in order to build business.
With regard to Dave’s comment about ‘boys toys’ I hardly think so! My most precious commodity (as I have another job) is time. I like to mow the pitching area on our CL between 11am a 12 noon (changeover time) as the chances are there will be fewer vans on site and being mid-day is likely to be dry on a rain-free day. With my ride-on it takes 30 minutes and looks neat & tidy with no clippings evident. In the Summer the mowing needs to be done (as it’s a mulching mower) twice or maybe three times a week. The rest of the field is left as a meadow for dog-walking and room for kids to play.
Regarding VAT you will find that most CL’s operate outside the VAT threshold. However a number of farms (like us) might choose to register for VAT. Some years we are nett beneficiaries of this arrangement (ie we end up recovering more from HMRC than we pay, other years we aren’t). This depends on how much we invest in plant, machinery and infrastructure for the farm. But I don’t think this is an appropriate forum to discuss VAT rules, it’s up to each CL to choose this.
Regarding Occupancy and projected income, as was stated it's actually impossible to be 100% full unless you have a stipulated change-over day and week-long bookings.
Speaking from experience, achieving more than 60% occupancy is highly unlikely between Easter and October. In the Low season it’s more likely to be 20%. Then you have to factor-in late cancellations and early-departures which probably knock 5% or more off your projected occupancy. So those thinking you can make more than £20K on a seasonal CL are in cloud-cuckoo land. The reality is that most CL’s will struggle to make £5K and the best seasonal CL’s might make £10K. Exceptional CL’s that are open all year might achieve £15K if they are lucky.
What probably hasn't been computed by many CL visitors is the time each owner spends managing a CL.
On average I'd think it takes me an hour to 'process' each visitor when I take into account; taking the booking, doing welcome sheets, saying hello on arrival, taking meter-readings for the EHU, advising on where visitors might go locally (National Trust, good Pubs etc.), taking their payment balance and then all the back-office functions such as book-keeping, VAT, banking, answering booking enquiries, chasing deposit payments and so on. Sometimes, if I have to hear about the visitor’s mother-in-law and her bunions or why their water-heater isn’t working, it can take a lot, lot longer!
On top of the 'per-visitor' time is the day-to-day regular site mowing, sorting the recycling (often in the wrong bins - despite clear instructions), maintaining hedges, gateways, taps, CDP, wheeling the bins to the bin-men etc. keeping the information leaflets topped-up & providing levelling blocks (which have a habit of walking) and keeping an eye on the Reviews posted on the CAMC site.
And then the occasional tow-on / off situations, repairing the damage to grass caused by over-use of awning ground-sheets / motorhomes etc. helping elderly visitors who can't manoeuvre or pitch their caravans, helping visitors with tools / tapes / glues to mend their cars or caravans, asking their kids (3X) not to throw sticks for our dogs, arranging dog-sitting for their dogs etc. etc.
Oh, I nearly forgot the 'drop-in' Members who like to drive out into the countryside and visit CL's they 'might' visit and would like a tour of the CL.
In the off-season, I'll be renewing our CL Public Liability Insurance, updating the circular-alk maps, arranging the EHU testing, ensuring the Club website has our correct details and photos, updating our own website and booking system and getting the mower serviced for next season.
I’m not moaning. I really enjoy running the CL and meeting my visitors. They are all lovely and I enjoy sharing our farm with them and recommending other local businesses that they might support. If I didn’t enjoy it I wouldn’t do it. But it is a job, it’s not a hobby. What rate-per-hour do you think we CL owners should value our time at?
Now I'm listing it out, I wonder where we find the time as although I (luckily) work from home I have a full-time job. Thankfully my wife shares the load on a lot of these tasks.
So, before you think we CL owners just mow a bit of grass once a week for £10/night and it’s easy money, you might like to offer your favourite CL to 'warden' their CL for a weekend and see a bit of what's involved. I know that Phil at Bow Hill Farm - who at £27.50/night and has good occupancy - has done the maths!
Better still, buy some land and open up your own CL. It can be fun, but it is a commitment. The Club are keen to have more, especially those run by active members who have caravans or motorhomes. However, I’d caution you to think long and hard before investing your pension-pot into a CL. You might never get away from it, not all your customers will be charming, and your return on investment might be a long time coming.
Dave, If you’d like to come and mow a pitch for me with your hand-push mower you are more than welcome, it might save me a few minutes!!
My last two customers of the season arrive today and I’m hoping for a break now until it all starts again at Easter. I’m pleased to say that my customers think we are good value for money and we have a high number of repeat visitors. Brue, you'd be most welcome to come and see us again.
I look forwards to 2018 and trust that the Club will continue to support the CL network and it’s hard-working owners, and handful of whom will be joining me at the Club AGM on Saturday. Come and meet us!
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A very comprehensive description of running of a CL. You MUST pay yourself the minimum wage 😉. Don't do the sums you'll frighten yourself 😂😂. We haven't visited you yet, but are hoping to in due course. We love the CL network, thank you all for your hard work.
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Bakers2 - We look forwards to meeting you. Thank you for your support.
Correction : I hit send a little early on the long post above, on reflection my figure of 20% occupancy in the low months might be optimistic, I need to do some additional research with my fellow CL owners who are open all year.
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Cholsey Grange:
I ticked the like box for the post from Cholsey Grange, but feel that such an effort to provide a reasoned and comprehensive response requires a proper thank you. Good luck with your CL.
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I would guess that once they become established, have a good number of decent reviews under their belt and can demonstrate that they provide a better experience than other local competitors they may feel justified in raising their price. At the moment their price is probably artificially low, in order to build business.
I think that's a cop -out, and that sort statement is just the thing that will make certain CL owners increase their prices when they had not consider doing so before reading it. The way I'm reading it is that you are encouraging owners of popular CLs to raise their prices....is that to make your's seem less expensive when compared to them I wonder?
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The great beauty of the CL network is that there is something out there to cater for all requirements and price ranges.
We are old style tourers, like the basic Sites, carry all we require onboard. We were spoilt having a month in Cornwall every year for under £300, including ehu. Probably a bit more now on same CL, but circumstances have prevented us doing our usual long SW break for a few years now.
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Obbermockle (& others) thank you for your support. It's appreciated.
Nellie. I am not trying to get CL owners to raise their prices. What I - and a number of other CL Owners in our support-group - are trying to do, is help CL owners run their CL's effectively, for the benefit of all members and thereby keep the CL network growing, rather than declining.Unfortunately, the decline in the CL network continues, despite the best efforts of the Club this year to recruit more.
In October 2016 there were 2,343 CL on the network. Today there are 2,298, which means we’ve lost 45 CL’s in the past year.
To assist the Club, and members like yourself that love visiting CL’s, we have set up a 'Self Help' group that now has over 400 CL owners as members. Within the group, we are starting to share ideas and best practice so that we can all learn from each other. For example, I am considering Hardstandings and I have run my ideas past 2 or 3 others in the group who have hardstandings for their very useful input on dimensions, costs etc.
We have also published a 16-page guide to marketing a CL for members of the group, we’re sharing information on cancellations, EHU usage, booking systems (which make it so much easier for members to book popular sites and reduce the chances of overbooking), photography, social media etc. etc.
Nellie, as you know, CL's close due to many reasons (such as change of ownership), but one of those reasons is that the owners doesn't believe their CL is economically viable. I have often heard from CL owners "My takings don't cover the cost of my mower fuel and I’m thinking of shutting down after X years”..
Therefore, one of the objectives of the group is to ensure that CL's remain economically viable.
When, for one reason or another, an owner decides that the income generated on the CL is not covering their costs and they decide to take down the signs and exit the network, it leaves you with fewer places to visit. The knock-on effect is that the club has to spend a lot of ££ (your subscription money) to recruit, and then have certificated, another CL to take their place. Bear in mind that only 25% of applications, resulting in an opened CL. So, just to recover the network to where it was last year, the club will need to have around 200 applications in the pipeline today.
Therefore, to ‘stop the rot’ and help and guide those CL’s that feel they might be uneconomic, our encouraging Owners to look long and hard at what proportion of their overall costs (across their farm / smallholding etc.) are attributable to running the CL and doing a proper business analysis, so that they can consider their business plan and their pricing.
The good news for you is that a good number (possibly 1/3) of CL's are not looking to make a profit. They simply run the CL as a hobby. But do you want a network of 700 'hobby' CL's or a network of 2,300?
If you want the latter, the 2/3 of CL's (like mine) that want to provide a great customer experience and at the same time not just cover our costs, but also make some return on our investment and cover our time (see earlier post), we need to remain economically viable. We are not a charity.
If that means you won't be visiting Cholsey Grange, that's fine by me, but I was rather looking forward to continuing this discussion over a cup of tea or a pint.
Next time you visit a ‘good value’ CL but think they might be on the brink of closure, please point them in our direction. We’ll see what we can do to help them.4 -
CG, a fascinating insight into the workings of a fledgling idea(CL owners group) I hope you go from strength to strength, thanks for sharing. I personally have paid £20 p/night & have thought it worth every penny. I am location & facs driven not money driven. Thanks again
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Add hardstanding to that and I am also happy. Toilets and showers are definitely not required but owners of campervans may well prefer these.
A thought, if it was known a CL owner had the capability to tow outfits off it might encourage me and others to use CLs more than I do. It is always a risky business visiting a CL even in the summer months unless hard standings are guaranteed. A symbol to indicate a towing off capablity was available would be very comforting.
peedee
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Adapt or die - that's clear. And a lot of CLs aren't adapting.
The elderly customers are dying off or going elsewhere in their shiny new motorhomes. The younger ones are taking their children to campsites with fire pits and hot tubs and tree houses. The active ones look for bike hire and drying rooms on site for boots and wet clothes.
But I don't see much future for the old style, unreformed CL. Adapt or die.
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Cholsley Grange - my criteria is Grass no facility £10.Grass,EHU and nothing else £12/13. H/s & EHU £15. Dont need WC. Showers etc.and I can get those on full sites at £15/20, any time of year. Just back from 5* commercial at £17-60 per night all in.
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There is no doubt its the 5 rule that determines Cls to open or to remain.The figure is too restrictive to consider development these days. Just not financially viable. but the toe in the water test. The C& CC club has 15 UNITS and its units that planners look at. Its the people volume,and car volume that makes the decisions. and its no different if its caravans or tents. That's why nearly every application to increase from 5 to say 10/15 units are nodded through at Planning and Nat Park level. That's the main reason for the reductions in Cls, secondly trying to compete with fully functional commercial large sites. thereby pricing themselves out of the market.
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Since a Club no facilities site, with HS, can be had for £14, I would not look to pay more than £12-13 for a similar CL, and no more than £15 if there was also a WC.
We usually use our own shower so would not want to pay over £16 max for any CL.
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KjellNN - I can see your logic, but the Club can afford to provide such a pitch @ £14 due to the economies of scale it operates the Club Sites at. You can't really judge a Club Site with 10's of Pitches against a CL which is restricted to 5.
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I understand what you are saying, but as a pensioner I do have to consider price.
If the Club site was in the area I wanted, it would get my business over a more expensive CL. If there were no CMC or CCC sites in the area I may well be willing to pay a little more for a CL.
Took a look at the Bow Hill site, it looks fine, but I would not pay their prices in low season, which is mainly when we go away. In fact I cannot remember ever paying that much for a pitch anytime.
We were recently at York, which seems to be an expensive area for sites, we booked Beechwood, but also looked at CLs in the area. Most were booked up but were IMO rather expensive for what they offered, so not worthwhile altering our booking to save £2-3 per night.
We do holiday a lot abroad, use ACSI and hardly ever book ahead (only twice in 10 years) as at our age things can often alter unexpectedly and trips need to be cancelled or altered, so we do like the no deposit Club regime, and the ease of altering things if necessary.
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We've used more CL'S this year than previously, we now have a much better shower in the new van. The things we look for in a CL are dog friendly and we like ehu. Like the site to be tidy with reasonable water and cdp facilities. This year the best cls we have stayed on have also been the cheapest. We have a local CL that now charges £27.50 for pitch, awning and 1 dog per night.😮😮😮 Luckily we have another local CL that only charge £13 and it's lovely stayed twice this year.
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Pretty much the same as us. We don't need showers and toilets just somewhere to fill and empty. EHU is good to have especially in winter to keep the battery topped up due to the lower light levels. H/S or gravel type area is good it doesn't have to be anything special, just firm ground that we won't get stuck in, probably up there with the EHU. We definitely would not pay £20 pn unless it was 'special' £12 - £15 is the norm for us and that's incl of EHU.
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At the last small site I went to the lady said "Do use our family swimming pool, would you like fresh hot bread brought to the caravan in the morning, please pick what salads you want in our garden, I will be doing an evening meal for the B&B visitors so would you like to eat with them ? there is charcoal by the brick barbecue at the end of the garden, do put any food you have in the chest freezer in the barn, you can hang wet clothes on the lines in there to dry too, and there is a table tennis table and a baby football game as well, here is the code for the free wi-fi, would you like to buy any new laid eggs? "
There were six or eight pitches rather than five so it wasn't a CL, but maybe there are ideas for CL owners too. You can compete with big sites in other ways than just by price.
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The sheer range and variety of CLs and the extras you sometimes come across make them a lovely place to stay. We have used swimming pools for free, bought gifts and crafts from onsite, home made cakes and bread, cheap vegetables, lots have fishing ponds, some will even cater for taking a horse! They are all out there, various prices, various locations!
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The things we look for in a CL are dog friendly and we like ehu. Like the site to be tidy with reasonable water and cdp facilities. This year the best cls we have stayed on have also been the cheapest.
It's the same for us. We do like H/S especially in the latter half of the year, but certainly don't need a toilet, shower or a water tap at each pitch....nice to have but not necessary.
CG it would be good to sit down and discuss the issues, but as your site is dearer than we would pay for a CL I can't see us enjoying that pint together. I will however pass on the info regarding your help group to any CL owner had I happen to chat to.
I'm like Kjell in that we use the CC's non-facility sites when there's one in the area we want to visit, and also agree with him about the pricing structure that he works to. I cannot ever remember paying more than £17 pn on any site that we've used and never more than £15 on a CL, and don't intend to change for a while yet.
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Cholsey Grange,
Out of the 45 CLs that closed this year, do you know how many of them were priced over £15? Just a thought...
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Or how many have gone on to be commercial site?
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