Hook up whilst in france
Hi all,
I hope this isn't a silly question, I have an adapter for the hook up just in case we need it whilst in France, but I read somewhere that you sometimes need a reverse polarity adapter. Is this needed? How would you be able to tell if a reverse polarity adapter is needed?
Thanks
Laura
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In my understanding not needed. There are reports of the negative and positive being wired the wrong way round (my garage had been for the first 25 years that I lived here). My understanding is that the cut outs in the caravan are dual pole these days.
Anybody know different?
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you may come across reverse polarity bollards....
these can be identified by using a tester plugged into a socket within the van once connected up....
sometimes a light inside the van will come on...
if you wish to do so ething about it, you may deploy your adaptor as you suggest....
continental vans are unaffected by this phenomenon as they are wired differently....
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It is not a silly question at all, in fact, the Club recommend not using a supply where the polarity is reversed. It is good to have a detector and you can buy one that plugs into a 13 amp socket which will indicate any problems with the supply. Loss of Earth is arguably a much worse situation.
Actually the risk with a modern van is quite small but a description of this risk is quite difficult to give in simple terms. If you are worried then, as stated above, you can buy an adaptor which is just a simple plug/socket with the wiring reversed.
Provided you unplug any electrical item if you intend to work on it, or make sure the supply is switched off at the main control panel then there is no risk. Even if you forget then you should be protected by the devices fitted into your electrical system.
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Laura, There were 3250 deaths in road accidents in France last year, but none on campsites from reversed polarity problems.
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I haven't come across a reversed polarity problem - but when I asked a similar question a couple of months ago I followed the suggestions of not leaving stuff plugged in when I wasn't in the caravan. If I had a checker I would have used it - but without that - common sense seemed to prevail.
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We were in France for a month this year and quite a few sites had reverse polarity. I don't bother with an adapter.
Actually it appears that nowadays the socket outlets in caravans and Motorhomes are unswitched. This is probably done to save money but it is a good thing because if you were working on a plugged-in appliance you would tend to remove the plug from the socket. With a switched socket you might assume that switching off isolates the supply which it doesn't do with reverse polarity (if that makes sense!).
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What is noticeable to me is that those who have no proper understanding of electrical engineering or standards poo poo any suggestion that reverse polarity is a danger. Those who do have understanding, such as hitchglitch, are more circumspect. I believe that most of us do take precautions against reverse polarity. Perhaps that's the biggest factor in there being no deaths each year (as suggested by Eurotraveller) in France.
For what it's worth, my view (as a retired professional engineer) is that there is a risk (albeit very very small), so why not take simple precautions?
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Interesting comment about switched sockets. Our last caravan the sockets had no switches. Our motorhome does. It seems almost an old fashion convention these days to remove plugs from sockets but it is a sensible way of avoiding problems. Perhaps a few second safety check before leaving the van for any length of time to make sure things are unplugged/switched off (electric hobs) might be more appropriate than worrying too much about reverse polarity.
The one thing that always puzzles me about reverse polarity is that in the UK everything electrical is clearly marked live/neutral/earth. If this is the same in France surely it's just laziness on the part of the installers for not wiring things correctly in the first place, or am I being unfair or exhibiting a lack of technical understanding?
David
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I'm another one of those 'bury your head in the sand' brigade and have been touring the continent for 30 years and never checked the polarity.
As with in UK, if there is a problem with any electrical item I would pull the mains lead out of the bollard before looking at anything.
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"The one thing that always puzzles me about reverse polarity is that in the UK everything electrical is clearly marked live/neutral/earth. If this is the same in France surely it's just laziness on the part of the installers for not wiring things correctly in the first place, or am I being unfair or exhibiting a lack of technical understanding?"
David in many European countries plugs are two pin so can be inserted either way so live/neutral is irrelevant ....some also have a double sided earth and some don't require an earth.
The standard French/German Shuko plug:-
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I have edited your post to just show a simple link and got it to open in a new page. When you go to the link button just enter the text you want to actually appear in your post in the middle box and then enter the url in the top box and answer the question in the bottom box do you want link to appear in a new page and select this option. That is how I achieved what is in your original post. Fairly straightforward?
On the content of your other post, it was not the bit you plug in I was talking about but what happens behind that plug ie the wall socket or site bollard. Surely these are clearly marked as which way they should be wired, live/neutral/earth? What I was wondering was if they are actually marked in such a way. I assume that earth is identified but are live and neutral?
David
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UK wiring is unique in having fuses and switches in the "live" conductor, or to put it another way, they use single pole switches. The reasons are interesting and historical but there isn't room to go through it here. Continentals use double pole switches and circuit breakers so it doesn't matter which way around the fittings are wired because when they are switched off or trip during a fault, both live and neutral are isolated.
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I have 2 adaptors, one I made using the 2 CEE connectors and a short length of cable, with L & N reversed on one plug, to be used, usually at the caravan end if the polarity is reversed. The other is a CEE plug with a continental 2 pin plug on the other end, also with L & N reversed since, in my experience, those sites that still have 2 pin supply posts are invariably 'wrong'! In the odd case where it's not, I just use the other adapter at the caravan end as well! UK 3 pin wiring checkers are widely available at caravan dealers and inexpensive.
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My van shows a red light when the polarity is reversed but the manual does not say what to do other than worry!!!!!!
So I have made up a reverse polarity reverser...this is a very short extension lead which I connect between my normal hook up lead and the electric point. BUT I have switched the positive and negative leads in one of the sockets in this. This simply switches the positive back over to the negative
I guess this is what a commercially bought unit is anyway.
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On a pedantic note (yawn), I'd like to clear up some of the nomenclature regarding ac power supplies. There are no 'positive' and 'negative' wires, just 'live' and 'neutral'. Indeed, in USA you can have two live wires i.e line-to-line.
There are no two-pin plugs in Europe ( except for double-insulated devices such as hairdryers)- they are two-pin and earth. And yes, the standards do specify which terminal should be live, and which neutral. It's just that the rules are not always obeyed.
Here's a helpful little diagram.
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There are lots of appliances in France which come with just a two pin plug........... and you can plug them in either way up. The washing machine, fridge and the oven have three pin, but our lamps, hairdryer, hoover (both types a lightweight Dyson and a 'Henry' type), radio, mixer, cassette player, and many others, have two pin. All were bought in France and unlike in England the oven just plugs in - it doesn't need to be hard wired.
We don't test for polarity in our home there, or in our caravan.
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I never see fleets of ambulances racing to continental campsites to deal with careless British caravanners who have neglected to correct their polarity. No one gets injured and no one gets hurt, but it is one of the many things caravanners have all been told they really should worry about in that dark strange foreign land 20 miles away. Those who stay in hotels and Gites never give polarity a second thought.
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When I first started taking my MH across the Channel six years ago every one said "Don't forget to take a reverse polarity plug and tester"
Well that was a waste of a few pounds and half an hour of my time.
Despite us disappearing into darkest France for weeks on end the device has never seen the light of day and was a complete waste of time and effort.
I've just had a 'clear out' in the garage and that's been the first to go - at least the connectors have come in handy making up an extra new extension cable.
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Many small sites (my preference) have some kind of wiring issue. Sometime I just don't use them if the plug in board looks dodgy and very old.
For decades I have carried a simple plug in tester as has been mentioned earlier and a home made polarity reversed connector. It's usually used at some point every Holiday.
I accept the risk is probably low but we do not actually know how many have been electrocuted on camp sites because unlike road deaths, I very much doubt the statistics are specifically recorded.
As adults, it's up to all of us to do our own research, make a choice and take the consequences if you get it wrong.
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I go along with take sensible precautions and nothing will happen regarding reverse polarity, my use of a tester is more to determine an earth is present and in the right pin.
But reverse connection cost me nothing as I made the spare outlet into a socket so I have the choice.
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When are those who keep telling us that there is no risk from reverse polarity going to tell us their qualifications to make such statements? As suggested above, statistics on campsite deaths from electrocution are not.known.
Furthermore a polarity detector will also advise of "no earth" which is potentially far more dangerous. What do the "no danger" fanatics make of that
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Same here AD, we have a tester and use the adaptor when required 10 sites on last trip, out of that I think 4 required the adaptor.
When going off site I tend to unplug any device, like kettle, tv, or items being charged. Overnight I tend to just switch them off along with the pump.
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When those of us who DO have relevant qualifications (such as MIET; C.Eng etc) mention them to give credence to a view we are are expressing, we usually get lambasted for 'showing off'. You just can't win .
I certainly agree that a 'no earth' situation can be far more serious. (and is by no means unknown in my experience). Unfortunately the technical details of precisely how and when it becomes hazardous , and how to overcome/mitigate the situation become rather more complex than the popular 'reverse polarity' issue.
(Just as a start: Although a plug-tester may not indicate an earth problem, this is no guarantee that the earth is good enough to protect against ALL fault situations).
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I agree that there is a lot of uninformed opinion on this forum and some of the comments that I have seen have been technically incorrect and could be misleading. For reference, I am a Fellow of the IET (formerly the Institution of Electrical Engineers), a Chartered Electrical Engineer and former member of the IEE Wiring Regulations committee which sets Regulations on safety and good practice in U.K. electrical installations. I can't claim to be correct 100% of the time because we all make mistakes but I find it frustrating when people venture opinions with no technical qualification or knowledge.
For the record, the Club recommend taking action on Reverse Polarity (an adaptor will do this), but the risk is quite small. If you choose not to use one (like me) then please ensure that if you are working on an appliance with a plug, pull the plug out, if you are working on part of the fixed installation then isolate the mains supply at the incoming breaker or at the bollard.
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