Diesel & petrol alternatives? Your thoughts please
Good Afternoon,
Hopefully you have now received your September Club Magazine and read the Ask Your Club article (see attached photo) regarding the future of caravanning post 2040.
Have you already changed your vehicle from diesel to petrol?
Is anyone already towing with a hybrid? Maybe a Tesla Model X?
Has the news affected your plans for your next towcar?
It will also be interesting to see how motorhomes evolve into hybrids and/or electric models, which alternative to diesel would you prefer to buy; Hybrid or electric?
Are you concerned about so few alternatives to diesel at the moment? Would you choose petrol instead if they were more widely available? There is now a VW T6 camper with a petrol engine available.
Has this news made you think about switching to a car and caravan? Equally would caravanners consider trading in their car and caravan to purchase a hybrid or electric motorhome?
From the questions above, we would love to have your feedback.
One thing is for sure, there will be some interesting times ahead.
Comments
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I was towing with a Lexus RX400h hybrid for several years until last year. Whilst the car was super economical solo in city driving and able to tow my 1800kg caravan with ease, the benefits of a hybrid powertrain dwindled on the motorway and even more so when towing. I have never had a car where the fuel consumption varied so much, from really excellent to just about acceptable. For that reason I probably would not buy a hybrid again unless forced to do so for economical or political reasons.
At about the same time as I sold the Lexus I also got rid of the second car in the family, which was used more as a local runabout. Replacing two cars with one meant that the yearly mileage would almost double on the remaining car. For reasons of economy I therefore bought my first diesel, although under other circumstances I would have chosen a petrol again and despite the bad press that diesels have been faced with recently. Untypically, perhaps, I went against the grain with my choice of engine.
Pure electric is out of the question so long as the range of electric cars and the choice of a suitable tug for an 1800kg caravan is so limited.
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Our present Mercedes based motorhome is diesel. However we have pxd our petrol car for a BMW hybrid with a range extender. So far so good. The BMW is awaiting homologation for towing , so we're awaiting the results. However once our motorhome runs out of steam ( or we do !) we will just run our car. No doubt there are further developments in the pipeline, we see even Morgan are now developing an electric car, it looks like the future will be very different for motoring in general.
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IMO the technology has to change out of all recognition to deliver really viable alternatives to our present tow cars and van based motorhomes.
Saying that I have little doubt it will, not least because it must; batteries have got to develop and things like fuel cells for in use electrical power generation from liquid or gas, high power density fuels could well come into play.So for sure we will not be early adopters as I see present and immediate offerings are going to be technically trumped very quickly, making their depreciation eye watering. We will hang in with what we have 2 x Euro 6 while we can and if big cities don't want us the feeling will be mutual and certainly not a worry.
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Too much knee jerk reaction IMHO at the moment.
If you just need a run about with limited range then electric may be acceptable to you. Battery life and residual value of vehicle after 6 or 7 years is a worry (unknown?)
Hybrids are complex and may be good solo but will rely on engine to supply the power after a short period towing or after long distances?
Hydrogen is a non starter in my (and this book's) opinion see:
http://www.withouthotair.com/c20/page_129.shtml
It gives practical details on most of the technologies touted to be "the answer" (it's a little dated but the basics don't change and changes in technology can be noted)
In the meantime, I've bought the diesel car 6 years ago and intend to keep it for the foreseeable future.
Towing caravan is a high demand activity which may, in the fullness of time be banned?
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No changes planned at all, Kelly. Keep towing with diesel Land Rover for as long as possible.
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I think that actually the comment decrying hydrogen in the above link that states basically "Honda using hydrogen in a fuel cell uses just as much energy as fossil fueled cars do today" is more positive than negative.
The immediate quest is pollution reduction not energy reduction. Despite best efforts lugging a certain mass about in the same way as we do today will need the much the same energy anyway, though hopefully extracted from the source fuel more efficiently. If a replacement for wheels tyres and tarmac can be introduced we could clip back the rolling energy bit, but I doubt big changes are imminent.
It is IMO the infrastructure ramifications that will nail "charge at home and on street" electric vehicles; I feel whilst it might be possible in thirteen years to build sufficient generation, I simply can't see it being delivered to point of need. Therefore IMO the power for electric drives I feel will have to mainly be dispensed much as today in a high power density fuel but one that is convertible to electric energy at point of use. That with vehicle battery support to supply short duration peaks, ie a hybrid of sorts.
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Accept your point about the immediate aim of pollution reduction but IMHO the fossil fuel reduction comes very close after (unless you are a climate change denier) The reference needs to be read in full for an overview.
The things I picked up about Hydrogen were the facts that it is not a dense energy source (so may have range problems), the tanks needed to store it are under extreme pressure or very low temperature hence heavy and expensive plus the problem that leaving it parked for any length of time means the tank may be empty when you return? Plus yet another set of infrastructure issues to tackle.
Obviously, there are many options to explore and business as usual probably isn't one of them.
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Hi, we have an Outlander PHEV and our experience is similar to Lutz. Day to day solo, we do not use any petrol. When towing it does the job well being heavy enough and very stable. But the battery life is negligible when towing and the engine is noisy when worked hard.
When our old Touareg kept having expensive problems, we chose to buy our first ever new car, to try to avoid future expensive repair bills. The fuel savings we made by choosing the PHEV allowed us to buy (PCP) new.
Whilst it's a far from ideal towcar, it suits us as an all rounder one car family. It also swung the pendulum from a 3ltr high consumption all the time user to an, only when towing high consumption user. And whilst it wasn't our first consideration it has had the secondary benefit of lowering our families emissions.
We are very happy with it. Cheers, Alex.
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PHEV vehicles do not solve the pollution issues which the Global Warming prophets of doom keep thumping on about.
PHEV vehicles use fossil fuels, not quite as much as conventional fossil fuel vehicles but they do not conform to the ideal principle of "All Electric" vehicles.
"No Emission Cars" such as the top of the range Tesla are currently leading the way in proper EV vehicles but others like Aston Martin and Porsche will follow within a couple of years. ( cheaper makes currently on the market now )
K
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So they've cracked it with the pollution-free creation of leccy then?
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Nissan and BMW have produced electric cars with range extenders, Tesla have had problems but apparently are making headway with haulage developments. To understand more take a look at manufacturers web sites and YouTube. As I said our car is awaiting homologation, OH is interested in who will design the tow bar. He has been in touch with companies here in and in the USA. The structure of our BMW is non conventional. There is information out there.
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There is no such thing as a 'no emissions car', they just pass the pollution back up the supply chain to the power station.
The current hype over diesel cars has been brought about by people who have not bothered to check the actual facts. Banning diesel cars from city streets will make very little difference to urban pollution levels. A single wood burning stove emits more PM 2.5's than a hundred petrol cars [fact]. 'Diesel Car' magazine has conducted extensive research and produced 4 excellent articles under the heading of 'Dirty Diesels' in their latest editions. Well worth the read for a balanced view of the problem.
Euro 5 & 6 limits are addressing the exhaust pipe emissions problem and future limits will be even tougher. I worry about the effects of Add Blue Urea on the environment so will be sticking with my Euro 5 diesel for the foreseeable future. There is no sensible and cost efficient alternative at present.
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It's proving to be very economical to run our electric car, the purchase cost was expensive but then this could apply to conventional cars too. The car uses minimal electricity on charge and minimal fuel in the small engine which boosts the battery, it also has regenerative braking which does the same, there is no tax either. Thoughts from my OH are that it will possibly tow well when approval goes through and we will be able to test this in a small way with a trailer. I don't know whether the club can come up with a suitable vehicle at present but some on here have been using hybrids with mixed results so far. But the performance of these cars is being improved rapidly.
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An Electric vehicle with a range extender is known as a vehicle with a series Hybrid drive-train. The most commonly used range extenders are small Internal combustion engines. They burn fossil fuels, so do not come under the category of an all electric no emission vehicle.
Whereas no-emission cars like the low cost Nissan Leaf through to the fantastic range of Tesla no-emission cars is where the future lies.
K
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Our car is a BMW Kennine, like other similar cars it's electric with a small motor that tops up the battery, the motor doesn't drive the car. That is why there is no tax on it. Several manufacturers have now caught up with this concept. Interestingly our car is fully recyclable due to it's non conventional construction. The fuel used is classified as alternative fuel because it doesn't drive the wheels. See the DVLA categories.
However I can't comment as yet on it's towing capabilities as it's awaiting homologation.
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Nothing to beat the diesel, the telegraph had a review of the new Volvo D60 Hybrid. They were not over enthusiastic the cars electric range was quoted as 28` so once that is completed you were onto a 34MPG Petrol engine. By the time you add a caravan its going to be an expensive tow.
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Yes I've changed. Was driving (44% of total mileage was towing) with a 7 yr old Euro 4 2 litre diesel. Was very concerned about possible hikes in either or both, in diesel fuel duty and VED costs. Had already decided to change the car after our annual September in France holiday, but the concerns led me to look for petrol this time round. Had towed (2004) for 3 weeks touring with a 2 litre petrol without problems, so don't anticipate any now. Problem was a lack of choice under £30K!
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I cannot see me changing the Euro 5 diesel motorhome I currently own for even a hybrid. Since most trips are much further than a battery can provide I see no point in even considering it. What I am investigating is the feasiblity of changing my run around towed car to an electric one, especially as the Club and others appear to be allowing charging free. Prices are falling and with PCP it looks appealing for a vehicle which I might eventually decide not to keep if it turns out to be a lemon.
peedee
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This is very interesting .... How toxic is your car
Testing & the figures they give us are a farce.
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I read that Mazda have a ‘ground breaking’ engine’ called the ‘Skyactiv-X - a spark injection enginewhich will be launched Tokyo motor show. It’s not electric but petrol and combines all that is good about petrol and Diesel engines. 30% more torque and 20-30% more efficient. Far less polluting too. They even suggest that it could save the petrol engine.
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I have been looking at an Outlander PHEV, and on first considerations it sounded like an ideal successor to our present 2009 VW Touran 1.9 TDI. Although the Touran has not yet reached the 5,000 miles mark, I have been thinking about changing based on possibilities that the government might impose eye-watering penalties for diesels, to "move us along" in getting them off the roads.
Although my Touran pulls at near to its maximum trailer weight of 1500kg without any hassle, a motoring correspondent on one website did a road test on the Outlander PHEV (15-plate) and, whilst everything sounded rosy during the test (solo), he ended by saying that, if it was to be used as a tow car, it would be better to go for the diesel alternative. So now I am back to square one regarding what would be suitable. I am totally alien towards a petrol-only car to replace diesel as owners of such cars who I have spoken to all indicate a comparatively horrendous increase in fuel consumption - both for towing and solo.
The current position is that it may be more economical to stay with my diesel Touran, whatever supplements in emission tax the government might inflict upon the likes of me.
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Such is modern technology.....
