Diesel & petrol alternatives? Your thoughts please
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I went along to our local Land Rover dealership last week and the salesman convinced me of the good sense in buying another diesel even though we have given up towing. He said that the Land Rover bosses think the hybrid electric demand is utterly nonsensical and does not save on carbon. They are complying with the need for hybrid vehicles but on the basis of performance improvement rather than fuel saving.
Needless to say our new Mercedes based motorhome will be diesel.
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Automotive news in Business section of i today notes a 29% drop in demand for diesel cars in October. Petrol models up 2.7% amid a slump in new car purchases. Alternatively fuelled vehicles up 36.9% with a note of higher taxes forecast on new diesels.
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No, definitely not a typo. I bought it new - had to order specially for VW to make it a 5-seater with full sized spare wheel. Having bus passes, and being retired, we use the bus quite often particularly for going into town. As advised, I am keeping it for the time being. It is properly dealership maintained on a service plan, and is in excellent condition. My main concern for looking at replacement is that the government might be swayed by the environmentalists and whack on a 'diesel solution tax'. The LEZ is already geared up to penalise diesel owners, and other towns and cities are 'looking at' following suit - probably as a revenue scam. Hitting existing owners with financial penalties will not reduce the emissions of diesels already on the road and still in top working condition. I suppose the best advice to caravan owners similar to myself is, Don't panic Mr Mannering!
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Jeez, I've just looked back at my previous posts and - red face and all that - it IS a typo error. My true mileage is just under 50,000 miles. Still low mileage for a diesel, though, so no change of plan!!!
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These reports on new car sales are really no use as they cover all cars bought by all owners, we as caravan pulling car owners are only a small % of new buyers. It would be interesting if these figures were produced for various owner categories such as caravaners,farmers. oap's company car drivers etc.
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However sales of used diesels are holding up so who knows what will happen long term. I suspect when the car buying public find out how impractical an EV is for range and recharging and hybrids are no where near as economical as claimed there will be a fall off in enthusiasm for them.
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First time I have ever seen it done but I was out walking the dogs the other day and there was an EV on charge outside a terraced house. they had run the orange lead across the pavement from the house to the car. It was in one of those rubber cable protectors which is like a miniature ramp but still a trip hazard.
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I see in the news today that Elon Musk has come up with an electric HGV that will do 500 miles. The question is, will it do '500 more'?
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I work in the motor trade and we've seen a huge change in the orders customers are placing for new cars.
People are requesting petrol more and more, even in cars that would previously have been unheard of being bought as petrol versions. In some cases we will no longer order diesel versions for stock.
Diesel is still exceptionally popular on the used market and whilst most people ask for the new SEAT Ateca as a petrol, they still want their Kia Sportage as a diesel.
The downside to all of this is that we are already seeing people returning having bought their petrol car are very unhappy with the fuel economy figures they are experiencing.
We are already starting to think about replacing our Audi Q3 which is over 1/2 way through it's agreement and the one thing that's certain is it's replacement will still be a diesel.
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I have looked long and hard at reviews of Hybrids for towing and not been convinced to buy one. For me it's not so much economy or range but one of capability. Granted the Lexus RX can match my Mercedes GLE (250d) on torque (Merc 500nM) but where I struggle is the reduced nose weight that all hybrids seem to suffer from. I have a twin axle van and even when new and unladen still gave 100kg at the hitch. It now runs at 106kg at the hitch fully laden. My GLE will allow 145kg at the hitch whereas the Lexus (and others) are only quoting 75kg max - no good. Unless there is a way of improving the tow car allowable nose weight I shall have to shy away from hybrids.
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This thread was started in September last year. There have been lots of member contributions. Kelly, does the CAMC have any thoughts on this subject, I would be interested for their feedback too, especially from the towing car industry point of view?
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No expert here, but interested in how, as usual, very different points of view expressed here vary according to the information source - the selling dealer, the notoriously unbiased Daily Mail, (!) other industry sources... something I find really hard in all research is sifting the vested interest, with appropriately selective "facts" from the truly unbiased, and there's not a lot of that last about.
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Done some digging on the Tesla model X as it is possibly the most advanced therefore a likely likely towcar.
All this is gleaned from Teslas US owners forum and other web searches So may not be Factual. Please verify for yourself before making a purchasing decision!
OK so the P100 spec car solo has a specced range of 351 miles in ideal conditions. In the real world using heaters, aircon against the wind and up hills at motorway speeds owners report 250-260 miles with a slight drop off in battery capacity as the battery initially ages so your 351 drops to 340 over the 1st three months then stabilises.
Towing capacity on 20" wheels is 2250Kg and curiously only 1500Kg on 22" wheels.
Some considerations are that aerodynamics play an important part in all Tesla designs so wacking a brick on the back will mess up the aero package somewhat more than conventional cars. Also stop start traffic could have an impact on range especially on a gradient.
One US owner has reported towing a boat (probably more aerodynamic than a caravan) of 2204Kg Towing performance as expected from the powerful electric motors is more than adequate, but he quotes energy usage of 575Whrs/mile solo and up to 800Whrs /mile towing which is 40% more.The owner estimated that in the worst case energy usage could be up to 60% more on gradient (hilly) routes. Taking the above best case and simply extrapolating the real world mileage would indicate a towing range of 150 miles max. Reducing the towing weight to 1500Kg would give approx 160 miles range. so you would probably need to pull off the motorway at 140 miles for a recharge. Maybe less if Van aerodynamics play more of a part.
If the service station has a Tesla supercharger the battery will charge at a rate of 167 miles per 20 mins so about 45 mins or so for a full charge. However on a standard charger the charge rate is 25 miles per hour so you could be there 10hrs for a full charge.
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Here is a summary of a US model X user towing a teardrop van of 573Kg possibly 750Kg laden
Towing distance: 1,003 miles (1,033 total)
Number of Supercharger stops: 11
Average stop time: 1 hour, 34 minutes
Average Energy consumption: 612 Wh/mile
Travel time: 40.25 hours (23.02 hours driving, 17.23 hours charging)
Average travel speed: 24.9 mphSo EV's have a long way to go in my opinion, a decent battery would help!
details of the above trip here
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In the USofA a trip of 1,000 miles is quite ordinary, and often people want to drive much greater distances.
3/10 "Must try harder"
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About right Nav,
The P90 spec model X has a nominal range of 250 miles solo, In the real world towing a very aerodynamic 750Kg it only managed 90 miles between recharges, with not much range left in hand. Also the driver turned off aircon etc in some cases to extend range.
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My nephew has the Tesla S. According to him the car will do about 200 miles on a full charge which costs about £5. The cars computer will plan a route for you and tell you where you need to recharge, how long yo need to charge it and how many charging points are free. On a long journey they try to make the refueling stop a meal break and that works for them. The problem comes if there is no Tesla charging station near as it takes some 36 hours to charge it from a conventional mains supply.
The car has no towing capacity and the only model they make that has, comes with a range of more like 100 miles so would not suit us, although some people needing to tow short distances might benefit.
A major problem for caravan owners might not be the number of charging points though, but access with a caravan in tow, as all points I have seen are only suitable for a solo car and you would have to leave the caravan elsewhere when charging.
Longer term electric cars draw on the grid in towns would be so high as to require replacement of all mains if they succeed to get the power needed so this may scupper the progress if people find having bought the car they cannot charge it.
A problem here seems to be that electric car owners have driven to work in a morning and stuck the car on a charging bay and left it there all day. This has led to some restrictions to 2 hours but if you are working moving it may not always be feasible but you will have to.
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I was reading an article in the dentist this morning about a new Tesla model due for production in 2020. Bit of a sporty job at $200K but with a range of 620 miles. Now that is starting to look sensible.
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For the foreseeable future (which will, in all likelihood, see me out) there really is no alterative to Diesel for towing. The sheer torque and power simply cannot be matched. Some petrol cars may match it, but at a huge cost in economy.
The cynic in me believes that we shall all be 'weaned' off diesel cars only to find in a few years that the reports of diesel fumes killing millions was, in fact, all wrong and based on poor evidence! A typical political ploy. We shall then be encouraged to buy diesel cars again!
As someone who worked on and with diesel engines for most of my working life, I have not suffered at all - and I am nearing seventy at a far too fast a pace!
If I ever need to replace my diesel vehicle, it will be with another diesel.
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Well....it seems there are a lot of people choosing the option of ditching their caravans and motorhomes. Our Cassoa Gold storage area normally holds 1300+ vans and mhomes.. since October 17 over 190 pitches have become available. This is not good news for all.
I think this will only get worse unless car makers sort their game out. Full electric cars don' and won' cut it. Hybrids unless top end don't cut it either. I'm sure we will see a resurgence in Erica Pucks fortunes.
Tj
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Subaru have just revamped their excellent "Outback" estate. The new version offers a 2.5 litre Petrol engine. in Boxer form (Flat 4 cylinder).
Knowing Subaru's record of 1st class engineering coupled with 4 wheel drive, I suspect it might be the answer to a few questions.
TF
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When (and if) we ever get a government that knows what it's talking about, then I shall accept their scientific evidence. So far, the one's who couldn't find any WMD and persuaded us to change to diesels in the first place, hold no substance. The current incumbents seem to have rather a lot on their plates with us leaving the EU, amongst other issues.
Knee-jerk reactions/policies don't cut it with me and to say that all diesel vehicles will be off the roads by 2040 is just ridiculous when there are no viable, affordable, alternatives. How are all those polluting trucks going to deliver our essential needs? Will our skies be filled with drones? Perhaps fracking will provide enough gas to fill our tanks? Maybe Mr Dyson will come up with a 'safe' nuclear car which vacuums as it goes along, recycling all the polluted air?
It’s all utter Tosh and until someone talks some sense, I shall stick to my superb-at-towing diesel and will replace it with another when necessary. In 2040, I very much doubt I shall be here to see the alternatives, caravanning instead in that "wonderful site in the skies"
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Well TF...they have ditched diesel engines completely on all revamped models it' only available on the ageing Forester. It's not an option going forward as a towcar as even when solo its real world mpg is woeful...down on power down on torque ...
I predict Subaru will join Lancia and SAAB as extinct brands unless they drag themselves into the modern day with a Hybrid. Some may see this post is a little biased but I have owned 3 Scoobys from new 2 Outback diesel....brilliant towcar....Current Forester..diesel...even better towcar than the Outback.....
Sad Tj.
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Tj I agree with your sentiments about Diesel, especially the newer low emissions ones.
I currently tow with a big diesel 3 Litre V6 turbo superb! But like many others I have been keeping my eye open for an alternative. I have always admired the Subaru boxers and was very pleased when they introduced diesels. Nearly bought one last time until the service manager cast doubt on the Auto box's ability to tow my 1650kg van that well. So was hoping that the new 2.5 Petrol might have been better than the older petrol engine.
Like you I am concerned that the Govt seems to be taking action without really looking at the problem. The new Euro 6 diesels are cleaner than the equivalent Petrols, but the Govt still wants to outlaw diesels why? And I presume they will stop all the new Electric trains from entering cities now that they have had to have Diesel engines fitted because of the failure to complete the electrification program??
Its all rather silly!
TF
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