Reversed Polarity
Please could someone remind me? I arrived on an ACSI site yesterday and set up then Monsieur arrived and asked if I had reverse polarity so I asked him how I would know! Giving what I describe as a French Shrug he said if it works you are OK. Well it does work, plugged straight in as per normal in the UK (no adaptor needed). Question is, is all safe or should I be doing something? I connected 24 hours ago so kind of assuming it's ok! Thank you!
Comments
-
As you say, this has been discussed numerous times and always engenders contradictory views and explanations.
All I will say is that I am an Electrical Engineer , CEng, and so-called 'reverse polarity' certainly never worries me. I am much more concerned about lack of a satisfactory earth on some supplies I have encountered.
(there are 3 copies of your post - usual forum problem .... and too late for you to delete them yourself!).
1 -
We have a revers polarity tester and an adapter that reverses reverse polarity (if you see what I mean).
Before we had these, we just plugged in.......and we are still alive.
I believe that reverse polarity can leave electrical items 'live'......whatever that means.
0 -
Agree with this concern about lack of earth. Over the years we have come across a few sites with horrendous electrical connection points. The worst was (and still is for all I know) Camping Despenaperos in Spain where the electrical points are set in small concrete blocks near to the ground. More than half of those I tried were hanging out of the concrete blocks, some of the outlets were working, some had no earth. On another site in France there was one outlet with earth connected to the wrong terminals - luckily I tested that one before trying to use it! I have never worried about reversed polarity though.
0 -
I can't state for other systems but the Swift Sargent reverse polarity light also glows if there is no earth, which, I agree is potentially far more serious.
There is IMHO three layers of protection against shock that are built into the system:
1. RCDs if fitted to the consumer unit measures the currents flowing through live and neutral. If they don't match it assumes the difference is going to earth through a person. This is the ultimate protection you have.
2. Earth: this conducts away any fault currents caused by insulation breakdown etc. It helps the fuses to blow or circuit breakers to trip quickly, it should prevent fatal electric shock as the human body should have a higher resistance than the earth path providing your hands are dry (skin resistance is high unless it's wet and internal resistance is very low) Good protection but not absolute?
3. Correct polarity on the supply prevents the internal wiring of devices being live when the switch is off (this assumes single pole switching, if double pole switches are used, this doesn't apply) If you switch off a toaster with reverse polarity and single pole switching on sockets and device, the elements would be live so anyone fishing around with a metal object could easily get a shock. So useful protection under specific conditions?
Have I got this right?
I'm a big believer in Two Factor problems, one fault may get you but two faults together certainly will which is why, despite many posts to the contrary I want all of the system including polarity to be correct. AND it's OK saying YOU understand the risks but children and others may not and you have to protect them.
Your views may differ.
1 -
"The worst was (and still is for all I know) Camping Despenaperos in Spain where the electrical points are set in small concrete blocks near to the ground"
Interesting that you mentioned Despenaperos; we were there early last December (A lovely site, IMHO).
Although I didn't find any problem with the supply, we did manage to trip it ... our fault. As there are no breakers of any kind on the concrete posts, I went to the office. I was incredulous that every single outlet on the site is wired back to an overload CB on a huge board in the office! Groups of CBs were protected by RCDs. Presumably it was installed like this in the past so that power was only turned on at a pitch if you paid for it.
It then got interesting (the guy at reception has very limited English, and I have zero Spanish) because 'my' pitch was still ON, although I could see that an adjacent pitch had tripped. .....clearly they were mislabeled. I was getting nowhere, so gave up and just reconnected to a working outlet!.
At the last site we stopped at on our return, I could feel a definite tingle when standing outside and touching the 'van ... a sure sign of a poor earth AND something leaking to earth in the 'van. Sure enough, when I hooked up the 'van at home the RCD promptly tripped. It turned out to be a classic case of leakage in the ultrastore heating element.
0 -
-
As has already been said this topic has been discussed a number of times on CT - often heatedly.
I sit in the camp of fix it - if reverse polarity flags up it can mask something far more serious. If using a reverse polarity (cross wired) adaptor doesn't cause the warning light to go out then there is most likely an earth fault which is life threatening - BUT it won't be known unless the reversed polarity issue is investigated. It seems to me that as the cost to "fix" the issue (reverse polarity) is minimal (as I have said before - less than the cost of a mediocre glass of wine) there is little valid reason not to investigate.
I also subscribe to the theory that it is rarely one issue that creates a life threatening incident - it's when the first unresolved "issue" combines with a second "issue" that wellbeing is in danger.
Ome "n" Dri
0 -
Well, I have met many French, Dutch and German caravanners and motorhomers who don't ! It is rather a British pre- occupation,
0 -
We don't - and I've never seen one before. We just plug in to the caravan first, then the bollard, make sure we handle all electrical apparatus safely, and don't worry about polarity one way or the other.
In our house in France plug sockets sometimes have an earth, sometimes not, (even the socket in the bathroom) and a discussion with a French electrician about this was met with a 'Gallic shrug' and the issue of a safety certificate! We don't worry about polarity there either.
0 -
It just boils down to if it worries you then take steps to be aware of it and if necessary change it.
If it does concern the individual then as mentioned, purchase a cheap socket tester. Besides reverse indication it will also give you an indication of an earth being present, or not. Then if still concerned do something about it such as a 'reverse polarity lead' or just try another bollard outlet.
If it doesn't concern you then happy holidays
, as long as sensibility and respect of electrical items is taken you will be fine.I use this simply because I have a spare socket on my lead.
0 -
Val
Its called a Martindale tester and they cost about a fiver. Even if you ignore reverse polarity element of the tester it does given an indication of an earth problem which many of our more learned colleagues suggest is more of a problem than RP?
David
0 -
Found that I had one of those testers, at the bottom of my 'spares' box, this morning (caravan home for service tomorrow) so out of curiosity plugged it in - all ok. However, can't remember ever having used one in over 40 years caravanning and never had a problem. Do though press the 'test' button regularly.
Val, exactly the same when we lived near St Chinian!!
0 -
BTW this is the official Club advice on the matter which is much more generalised than it once was. I am not sure I agree that reverse polarity is as widespread as they suggest. They also mention being able to turn the continental adaptor the other way up to correct the polarity but this does not apply in France because electric bollards usually have a male earth pin which prevents this. Being able to turn the plug up the other way really applies to Germany and Austria. In those countries I suppose you could end up with reverse polarity because you have initially put the plug in the wrong way up
David
0 -
Thank you all! I may get a Martindale tester before I go to France again in the meantime I will be careful. No electrical appliances really other than chargers for Dyson, iPad phone etc, except for the Halogen hot plate and that was ok yesterday. The caravan is earthed on two corners now I have lost another foot, but I kept one off on advice from a fireman friend.
0 -
Pippah
Everything will work perfectly well with reverse polarity so it won't harm any or your appliances. The danger is that something could still be live when you think it is switched off. An example might be that if you had a freestanding 230v light that was switched off at the socket but the plug not removed it is possible that you could get a shock if you accidentally touched any of the metal parts in the lamp when replacing the bulb. The easy solution is just to make sure you unplug everything when not in use. If it was a built in 230v light that needed attention just unplug the mains connection whilst you do the work.
David
0 -
I wouldn't trust the idea that just because a metal foot is touching the ground, this counts as a good Earth, normally, a spike has to be driven in to some depth to form a suitable earth connection. If the ground was dry it wouldn't conduct at a satisfactory level. This is why the earth conductor going back through the bollard to (hopefully) a correctly installed earth point is vital.
0 -
Only a British pre-occupation because European built leisure vehicles are wired with both the positive and negative circuits individually switched. This is a European standard also for domestic and commercial premises. UK build 'vans are wired with the live circuit only switched. It could be said that the European system in this aspect is somewhat superior from a safety point of view. Having said this, in my varied and frequent visits to foreign parts over 36 years I have not seen camp sites littered with electrocuted Brits but without doubt there is the potential for harm.
People will make their own decisions of course but it always seems strange to me that for so little cost to fix reverse polarity and even less effort why wouldn't one potential for harm be made to go away.
Ome "n" Dri
2 -
Thank you all again and thank you David I will unplug anything not in use on mains. I get the shivers in America with some of the stuff they do there. Bathroom sockets etc seem very dangerous. Elf and Safe T can be overdone but not with electrics!
0 -
Was informed many years ago by an electrian that the only possible effect of revers polarity was that the fridge would not be as efficantent so for that reason I do check the polarity in France I will not take the risk of my beer not being cold
0 -
Hopefully he was pulling-your-leg .....rather than totally incompetent
0 -
-
In the days when the GPO Telephones often connected subscribers in rural areas back to the exchange using "party" lines a good earth return was essential. In dry weather this was one of the easiest faults to clear as all it required was a visit from an enginner with a full bladder to urinate on the earth spike and all would work well again for many a week.
0 -
Did he also tell you that your vacuum cleaner would blow instead of suck and don't for one minute contemplate using a hair dryer? Perhaps your microwave will chill the food rather than heat it? Must have been April 1st.
0 -
Reversing the (DC) polarity on your thermo-electric (Peltier) cool-box will guarantee warm beer though
.0
