Nissan CVT and European Bureaucracy
Last Friday we took delivery of a Nissan X-trail with CVT courtesy of the Club offer -excellent and many thanks to the Club.
We are delighted with the car but very puzzled to find that in auto mode the car will not change up to top gear (7th) other than by using the manual mode. This morning I returned to the dealer and one of their technicians took me out in the car and set off down the dual carriageway. He found that the car will change up to 7th gear in auto mode but only if you reach 80 m.p.h. He was as puzzled as by this as I was so promised to make enquiries with Nissan.
The dealer has been very efficient and got back to me with the information from Nissan. They have stated that the car has to comply with European homologation and therefore the automatic gear changes have been set up for use in France and Germany: countries with higher speed limits than we have in the UK. The dealer assures me that it is fine to use manual mode to engage 7th gear at 70 m.p.h.
I must confess that I find the information from Nissan strange to say the least. The car we have just traded in was a Qashqai 4X4 auto. In auto mode it changes to top gear (6th) at 60 m.p.h. If the Qashqai is set up in such a way then why does the X-Trail have to be set up differently as for France and Germany?
Perhaps after Brexit Nissan will have a recall of all X-Trails for a change to the computer to comply with UK speed limits.
I am hoping that someone in the technical department at Nissan might see this post.
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my 7 speed 'proper' auto Merc will change into 7th automatically at about 60/65 ....... to be honest, I don't count the gear changes & they are almost imperceptible anyway so not exactly sure when it does change.
PS If yours is a CVT, then the 'gear changes' must be done by electrickery anyway as that is the point of a CVT .... ie it's continuously variable (like DAF's rubber band drive Variomatic was all those years ago)
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like DAF's rubber band drive Variomatic was all those years ago
I remember driving one of those a few times back in 1970/71. Didn't much like it.
I was on the wagon for 12 months as I had felt I was getting rather too fond of a tipple and was at college. A few people put me on their insurance as named driver and I drove the cars after the first stop on a pub crawl!
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I think Nissan are telling porkies. Other manufacturers sell cars tailored for U.K. market conditions, for example with U.K. specific suspension tuning to suit our cart tracks sometimes known as roads. I suspect they have simply dropped a clanger. My DSG box 'learns' the drivers style and in my case changes upto top (6th) as low as 40mph.
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I remember reading about this a few years ago when we (briefly) considered an Xtrail.
The consensus at the time was that Nissan had a problem with the gear box that they didn't know how to fix. I think one chap had a replacement gear box which sorted it though.
It did put me off if I'm honest
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Interesting comments. I confess it seems daft to me that top gear is not engaged until travelling in excess of 80 mph. In manual mode in top gear the revs drop to 1800 and there is no labouring whatsoever so I fail to understand why the changes are set up in such a way. I guess there are drivers who will leave the car in auto mode, thus travelling in a lower ratio, and consequently use more fuel.
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I guess there are drivers who will leave the car in auto mode, thus travelling in a lower ratio, and consequently use more fuel.
Hi Qashqai,I got my first auto box 4 years ago, and just got my second.
I well recall the comment from the comment from the salesman that people usually play around with the flappy paddles for about a week and then just leave it in auto because that is exactly what happened to me.
Interestingly the only time that I use the manual option is when towing so a change up at 80 would not be an issue.
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I have never heard such a load of drivel as this from Nissan, the vehicle is clearly not fit for purpose if you have purchased an automatic and then have to resort to changing gear manually in order to use it on UK roads. Take it back and change it for something with a proper auto box.
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Our little CVT car changes into 7th at quite low speeds, depending what load it is under. I assume to minimise fuel use. Of course if you put your foot on the accelerator it will change down and then work back up through them, entering 7th at a higher speed. It has worked like that since new. That is when it is in eco mode. I assume when in sport it changes where it shifts up, but have not used that enough to comment. I have played about with the flappy paddles once or twice, but prefer to leave it in auto.
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I have never heard of anything as absurd as the response from Nissan (whoever that might have been). Gear changes are, in part, linked with the need to fulfil emissions regulations and these are, admittedly, based on European directives. But anyone who believes that car manufacturers are going to callibrate gear changes any differently for vehicles in a non-EU market such as a post Brexit UK, is living in cloud cuckoo land.
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You are being fobbed off by the dealer I suspect, My (now sold) 62 reg Tiguan DSG would select 7th just above 50mph if you backed the throttle off.
My Freelander, albeit a 6 speed, will go in to top circa 50mph as well.
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I have a Subaru with CVT transmission. Before I bought the the car I researched how the transmission works as, unfortunately, a lot of dealers don't appear to know how it works and it gives very little trouble.Constant velocity transmission means just that. In simple terms there are no gears, just belts on automatically adjusting variable cones. The cone ratios are constantly changing. The numbers regarded as gears are purely fixed cone positions only relevant when in manual mode. Even in manual mode the ratio will adjust and drop if the road speed is too low for the selected belt position.
With CVT transmission in auto mode, the engine speed will be fairly constant regardless of road speed, to maintain maximum torque and fuel efficiency. I think Nissan, or the dealer, meant that at 80mph there is no further adjustment possible on the cones.
Google CVT transmission.
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No matter what auto you have it will depend on throttle position/use, speed, torque and anything else I forgot. If the conditions and speed dictate then it will be happier in the appropriate 'gear', I think the Nissan dealer has overstated in silly talk but the car and its CVT is behaving as it should.
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I too had wondered if the computer is being intelligent for the running in period but that does not fit with what we have been told by Nissan. I find their reasoning very strange.
A different car is simply not an option for us as every other car which fits our criteria has features which rule it out. The major one being that we find most car seats offer the comfort of a bus shelter bench.
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Interesting about the Subaru. We had a look at a Forester but preferred the X-Trail. Yes the both have CVT but the X-Trail is set up slightly differently from the Subaru or so I have been told. Nissan use computer electronics to mimic ratio changes to provide the feel of a torque converter. In the short number of miles covered thus far I find that at 70 mph the revs are around 2000 but if I engage 7the gear manually there is a drop to 1800 revs. To me that suggests that the transmission is not functioning at optimum efficiency in auto mode.
I am not an engineer so cannot claim to have all the answers but I remain very puzzled by the reasons given me by Nissan.
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My apology, Vulcan is correct and I should have said continuously variable transmission. The name I used was the name given to the system when it was used on some motorcycles in the early 1900s. See, nothing is new!
My research was not vehicle specific but on the general principle of the CVT system in general.
As I inferred, forcing a selector position manually overrides the optimum settings of the ECU for the driving conditions and road speed. Lower engine revs do not mean better engine efficiency.
CVT transmission cannot be compared with either a torque converter automatic, or an automated manual gearbox, or DSG, as it operates in a completely different way.
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Thanks Tinwheeler for your comments which are helpful. I am possibly making a mistake in trying to compare the performance with my Qashqai auto (TC box) which I have just traded for the X-Trail. However, I still find the behaviour of the CVT puzzling as the manual over ride at high speed results in a massive drop in RPM. I tried again this afternoon and found that if I move to manual at over 70 mph the revs drop from 2000 to 1500 in 7th gear.
Whatever the reasons for the CVT to be like this I would like Nissan to be clear about it and tell me if the car is working as it should.
This afternoon I had another new experience with it in the form of a couple of very jerky gear changes unlike the smoothness of the TC transmission to which I am accustomed. I thought CVT is supposed to be seamless. perhaps it was due to a cold engine.....?
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Qashqai, I think you might have a problem. The CVT should be smooth and seamless. Perhaps more so than a TC box. My Forester is smooth beyond belief - hot or cold - and I cannot fault it.
With regards to the revs dropping as you engage 7th ratio, can you be sure that you are only moving one ratio from 6th to 7th? If, for instance, you were moving up three ratios from 4th to 7th, that would explain the drop in revs.
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interesting point Tinwheeler but I assume that at 70 mph the auto would be in a higher ratio than 4th. Accuracy is not perfect as the readout changes fro D to the ratio number in the blink of an eye but as far as I can tell the change in revs is very marked when I get to 7th.
I will be interested to see what Nissan say in reply to my further questions and I will need to talk to the dealer about clunky changes.
Many thanks again.
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I have returned to the dealer this morning and the transmission has been checked and declared sound. The dealer also confirmed that Nissan have stated that at 70 mph the driver must engage the manual option as the engine revs will be too high if running in automatic mode. This is, so Nissan say, because of higher speed limits in France and Germany.
This bizarre situation gives rise to several questions.
1. Why did my dealer not know about this until I found out for myself after buying the vehicle.
2. Why is this not made clear in Nissan promotional material. Potential customers should be advised that the CVT will NOT function as a fully automatic transmission for use in the UK.
3. As computer electronics are used to control the gear ratios why do Nissan not equip cars for use in the UK to run in automatic mode?
I have addressed these matters to Nissan.
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No I am not happy though delighted with the car for may other reasons.
Buying an automatic I expected an automatic not a semi-automatic.
Nissan are now taking my concerns seriously and have promised to contact me within the next two days.
Our dealer was so surprised by this that I can only assume that there are Nissan drivers out there who never look at the rev counter - wonders never cease.
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I have just had an intelligent conversation with an engineer from Nissan. He assures me that there are a number of manufacturers whose auto transmissions will not select gears as high 7th until speeds well in excess of 70 mph and this is to allow for French and German speed limits. I seem to remember reading somewhere, I forget where, that the nine speed autos on Land Rovers hardly ever reach 9th. The engineer assured me that there is no gain in manually selecting a higher gear at speed as the car is well able to make its own decision in the light of revs and speed. He also pointed out - not that such is needed - that using manual when towing will be necessary for fuel efficiency etc.
This morning I found the car is selecting a higher ratio sooner than previously which suggests that the computer is getting used to me which is what it is supposed to do.
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So, in 7th gear at 70, what are your engine revs? Would you feel that the car is happy at that speed with those revs or would you consider it to be labouring? There are times when my Smart Roadster (6 sp automated manual) won't automatically go into top, but I can manually select 6th ..... it's not happy
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"He also pointed out - not that such is needed - that using manual when towing will be necessary for fuel efficiency etc".
Another ridiculous statement from Nissan, why should you have to use manual for towing and more to the point why would you purchase an auto if you can't use it for towing.
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