Loading below MTPLM -1400kg car tow limit
We are returning to caravaning after many years.
Have a new van on order for end of May (will have done Caravan Club towing course before then). We currently have a Qashqai +2 which has a max towing limit of 1400kg. Unladen Kerb weight is 1626kg.
Van we have on order is 1311kg MRO. MTPLM 1464kg.
We plan to change the car but cash flow means it may not be possible for a few months.
Is there any reason we can't just tow the van pretty much 'unladen' as as temporary measure?
We have been used to camping around France with the car fully laden, including back up box on towbar and big roof box. We have just reached the age😓 where putting up our big, heavy tent is too much for us. Can handle lugging stuff in and out of car/van when setting up and packing away. Our trips are usually for 3-4 weeks duration on one site.
We intend to put van on weighbridge after collection, to check actual weight (the dealer is fitting a motor mover which is not included in the unladen weight).
Would this be legal? We would NOT tow more than the 1400kg allowed by Nissan.
Comments
-
Yes legal - but...
Your car limit gives you a payload of just 89kg - out of which you need to allow at least 20kg for a battery so that takes you down to circa 70kg of usable payload which is not alot - that said if you really need to then all the heavy stuff in the car and you should be ok.
You may also be able to remove some stuff from the van that is included in the MRO, for example we remove our table (9kg) as we never use it, also stuff like the EHU cable, leg winder etc all are included in the MRO and can be removed and carried in the car and all add up to a suprising amount of weight. Can you do without Gas ? an allowance will be made in the MRO for that so again a saving could be made.
One other thing to bear in mind is that some vans don't tow very well when lightly loaded so perhaps best not to overdo it.
p.s in the short term I fear you will have to do without a mover as that would cost you at least 25kg
0 -
Thanks birderbilly,
Motor mover is non negotiable ... even if I have to shift other stuff to car. It will only be for a few months...hubby is weakening...I will get the auto 4x4 I want asap
1 -
fyi our motor mover weighs 27kg, which I believe is at the low end of mover weights. With the mover you will also need a hefty battery, ours weighs 26kg.
Given all this can I recommend this campsite
0 -
As you can see from pics...we are used to shifting a lot of gear in and out of car
With the new 'tin tent' we won't have to move any where near as much
0 -
Many thanks for the laugh...hubby recuperating from major surgery at the moment...made his ribs ache...in a good way.
Seriously, it's just for a short while...we would have the replacement car before we headed out of UK. There are only the two of us plus small dog...so we have masses of space in car/roofbox for all clothing, bedding, kitchen stuff etc. Also plenty of space for aquaroll, waste hog, leads, hoses etc.
Just wanted to check that as long as we keep actual weight of van below the 1400kg that we would be OK.
0 -
There is just one thing to remember with public weighbridges and they are subject to legal tolerances. I checked with my local Trading Standards and the weigh bridge I used had a tolerance of +/- 10kg. It might be worth checking with the weigh bridge operator and the local Trading Standards what the tolerance is.
I'm not sure what the maximum laden weight of your vehicle is as you talk about having massive space but you need to remember that the caravan nose weight is added to the overall weight of the car. Plus you have the issues of the various axle weights.
0 -
Actually, depending on the noseweight, you can load quite a bit into the caravan without exceeding the towload limit for the car. The car is not towing the full weight of the caravan, but only its axle load. Therefore you can deduct the noseweight from the MTPLM to work out what the car is actually towing.
The noseweight, however, has to be added to the weight of the car itself, as it can't disappear entirely out of the equation, so be sure not to exceed the car's GVW in your attempt to put as much into the car and as little as possible in the caravan.
0 -
really ???
struggling to see the logic of that - the additional weight of the caravan is surely additional load on the car regardless of what is borne by the towbar and what is borne by the caravan axle.
Or put another way increasing the nose weight by moving stuff forward in the caravan doesnt make the caravan any lighter !
0 -
No, but think of it like this:
The car is carrying the noseweight not towing it.
Of course the caravan is no lighter, but it's total weight is distributed between the car and its own axle. The load being towed is only the axle load, the rest, i.e. the noseweight, is added to the weight of the car.
0 -
The force required to accelerate the towed vehicle is transmitted through the tow bar, which is in tension, that force is the same regardless of the weight distribution between towbar and caravan axle. Equally the same force is required to deccelerate the towed vehicle regardless of weight distribution. The towing vehicles tow limit comes from its limited ability to accept the accerlerative or deccelerative forces which may be engine, brakes, chassis or even towbar mount limits.
0 -
Only the axle load of the caravan acts as a tensile force on the towbar. The noseweight is a compressive force in the vertical direction.
When braking, the noseweight is being braked by the car's brakes. Only the axle load of the caravan is being braked by its own brakes.
When accelerating it doesn't matter where the load is. The engine is accelerating the gross train weight, regardless of how the loads are distributed.
1 -
I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. Increasing the nose weight does not reduce the effort requied to accelerate the towed vehicle - the same amount of work has to be done by the towing vehicle regardless of the weight distribution. Increasing the compresive force on the towbar does nothing to reduce the tensile force when accelerating, this must be the case since the compressive force is acting at a right angle to the tensile force and cannot therefore impact on it.
0 -
Quite apart from our discussion. I would like to point out that the regulations also define the towload to be the axle load only and not the total weight of the caravan. If this weren't the case one would be counting the noseweight twice, once as part of the weight of the car and again as part of the towload.
Towload + GVW = Gross Train Weight
0 -
The other thing to consider is the axle loading of the car. I don't know what the Qashqai 2 figures are but some can be surprisingly low and it would be easy to overload, remembering that the nose weight of the caravan is part of the car axle loading.
0 -
not in itself illegal unless the courts could show that it was dangerous in which case it would be illegal as would any dangerous loading reagardless of plated weights.
0 -
Lutz, I’m not sure if what you are saying is correct. However I would be interested in your view.
Firstly Statutory Instrument 1078 gives a number of definitions for the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986. Specifically it gives the definition of 'gross weight' which is:
(a) in relation to a motor vehicle, the sum of the weights transmitted to the road surface by all the wheels of the vehicle.
(b) in relation to a trailer, the sum of the weights transmitted to the road surface by all the wheels of the trailer and of any weight of the trailer imposed on the drawing vehicle.Commission Regulation (EU) No 1230/2012 gives a variety of definitions as to how masses and dimensions should be measured for motor vehicles and trailers for type approval.
Article 2 paragraph 7 explains how the technically permissible maximum laden mass should be measured. It includes in the paragraph:
‘the technically permissible laden mass of a trailer or of a semi- trailer includes the static mass transferred to the towing vehicle when coupled;’It seems to me that its saying that the nose weight is included in calculating the maximum weight of the trailer. So could the nose weight be counted twice?
0 -
not counted twice - what the regs mean is that a tailer that weighs 1,400kg on a weigh bridge counts as weighing 1,400kg for the purpose of plated weights regardless of how much weight is "transferred" to the towing vehicle. This makes absolute sense because as I keep saying increasing or decreasing the noseweight makes no difference to the force/work required to tow the trailer.
0 -
Have just checked the weights on our cars plate...and jotted down (see pic) to get my head around this...
If we use a 'Caravan Weight Control' by Reich to measure axle weight (both wheels) and jockey wheel (nose weight) and make sure that the TOTAL is under 1400kg, then we should be OK?
Our cars plated weights are:
GVW = 2255
GTW = 3655
V5 states
F.1 max. permissible mass (exc. m/c) 2255
G Mass in service 1710
p.s. loving this discussion...reminds me of listening to discussions between engineers and designers from the various disciplines in the office
0 -
Of course you would be counting twice. The weight of the trailer includes the noseweight. I don't think you are denying that. But the noseweight is also included in the weight of the car. Hence you can't add the two together.
As I said before, the gross train weight is the total weight of the car (including noseweight) plus all the rest, which can only be the axle load of the caravan, not its total weight.
The actual wording of towable mass in the regulations is, quote, "mass of the trailer excluding the vertical load on the coupling point of the towing vehicle", end of quote.
Posted on 22/03/2017 13:25 by wanderin panda
Have just checked the weights on our cars plate...and jotted down (see pic) to get my head around this...
If we use a 'Caravan Weight Control' by Reich to measure axle weight (both wheels) and jockey wheel (nose weight) and make sure that the TOTAL is under 1400kg, then we should be OK?
Not the total including the load on the jockey wheel, but only the axle weight, for the reasons given above.
0 -
Sorry, the quote above is from the old regulation 95/48/EC. The current one, 1230/2012/EC to which dwlgll20 refers states "technically permissible maximum towable mass means the maximum mass of one or more trailers that may be towed by a towing vehicle which corresponds to the total load transmitted to the ground by the wheels of an axle or a group of axles on any trailer coupled to the towing vehicle".
The wording is somewhat different, but the gist is the same. In fact it specifically refers to the load transmitted to the ground by the axles.
0
