The small print on payloads
Comments
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Kjell, visibility in commercial vehicle door mirrors is far superior to that in cars. Depending on your layout, you may not have any visibility at all through the rear view mirror. It's the same for many a white van man.
I think you need to get out there and test drive something of the right size even if it's the wrong layout.
If I may be so bold as to say so, I think you have so many concerns that you need to do a lot more soul searching yet.
Not at all, these are not my concerns, I am merely discussing our DD's concerns, after all this is the "chat" section.
Perhaps I should have added a "smiley", but that did not seem appropriate to me.
I myself have no such concerns. Over the years I have driven many different vehicles, from an army lorry to our current 12.75m , 4.5+ tonne outfit, so am relaxed about driving a 7m MH. And I can see that the mirrors will give me a good view.
DD has apparently been watching some stuff on TV about cyclists for some reason coming up on the inside beside large vehicles signalling to turn, drivers not seeing cyclist for some reason, cyclist going straight ahead, large vehicle turning left and "squashing" cyclist.
Yes, a test drive would be good, just to get the feel of things, is this generally offered by a dealer?
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I'm going to stick my neck out even further, Kjell, and mention two things that jump out and hit me. I've no wish to cause offence here.
Firstly, I get the feeling that your heart isn't in this and you'd rather stick with the cvan which suits you with its familiarity.
Secondly, harsh as this sounds, I think you need to find a MH that suits you and your wife and not one that will accommodate your family members as well. It's a huge ask to find something that will meet all your criteria and, assuming you find the elusive beast, when it's just the two of you using it won't you curse the extra unused seats/beds that actually reduce your kitchen or washroom space?
I hope you accept my comments in the spirit they're intended.
Edit: We cross posted, Kjell. Thankyou for elaborating.
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PS. Any dealer who wants to sell will let you test drive something. Like buying a car, you can't buy before you try.
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Yes TW, I understand what you mean, and this is exactly the conversation we had today with DD.
We have told her that we would buy this MH to suit us, and if she wants to use it she will have to fit in with our needs. We would however like to be able to take a grandchild or two along now and again, hence looking for 4 seats and 4 berths.
I was indeed initially not that keen, the original suggestion of a MH was made by OH, however I am now coming around to the idea as I can see it does have some advantages.
We would like to tour the Scottish Islands, much easier in a MH, we would like to spend more time in Scandinavia, also much easier in a MH, so it does sound like it could be a good move.
It will be a substantial outlay for us, so we do not want to get it wrong, we are doing lots of research, picking brains on here, asking for advice from those with experience, which I think is quite sensible.
We have not seen (on paper) any purely 2 berth vehicles that we like better than the Hymer, fewer berths often seems to also mean unsuitable (for us) shower facilities.
I don't know how many dealers you have down your way, but up here they are extremely thin on the ground. Even caravan dealers are not that common, so we can really only look on-line to start with, not go out for the day and visit several dealers and see
a good range of vehicles, unfortunately.0 -
Kjell, I think you have thought of most pitfalls and I hope you didn't mind me being blunt but I'd hate to see you make a mistake by not putting yourselves first. I'm pleased to hear you sounding more positive.
Dealers are very thin on the ground down here as well. Mainly they are around 100 miles away but we did strike lucky in eventually finding our MH in the closest dealership about 40 miles from us. Prior to that, we had done our research at dealers whilst
away in the cvan.Good luck.
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Thanks BB, I think, after initial reluctance, that I may just be tending towards becoming a MHer!
As I said above, I can see there would be several advantages. We did consider a MH back in 1998 when we returned to caravanning , but dismissed it on cost grounds at that time, still having kids at school/university who we were supporting.
Now, however, I have my pension lump sum to call on, and the kids are well flown the nest, so we can afford it. However it is a big decision to spend that amount of money, so lots of thought required. Not yet ready to sell the house in favour of a MH!!!
The Hymer 598 does seem to offer everything we want, so all we need now is to actually see one.
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Kjell, I think you have thought of most pitfalls and I hope you didn't mind me being blunt but I'd hate to see you make a mistake by not putting yourselves first. I'm pleased to hear you sounding more positive.
Dealers are very thin on the ground down here as well. Mainly they are around 100 miles away but we did strike lucky in eventually finding our MH in the closest dealership about 40 miles from us. Prior to that, we had done our research at dealers whilst away in the cvan.
Good luck.
No, of course not, that is what a good discussion is all about. We need to find out about the pitfalls we may not have thought of, it would indeed be bad to make a terrible mistake!
We will not be buying a MH if we have any concerns that it would not suit us, the caravan still has many years of use in it, and the car will limp along meantime.
We are away soon for 4 weeks, so are planning to visit as many dealers as possible to see a ggod range of MHs.
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We have used Dicksons of Perth a couple of times as they gave good deals but their after service can be poor.
This is a link for scotmotorhomes.
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just been re-reading a What Mororhome article about payloads, manly invoked by the launch of the new Hymer B class (Dynamic Line) an upmarket A-class that can run in the 3.5t class...
however, despite the technical advances, we (the customers) still want more and more gadgets which is outweiging (literally) the improvements being made in weight saving.....
so, the point of this post was to, perhaps, approach the issue from the other end....
the article was keen to show that younger drivers (those who passed their test just after 1997) should yave nothing to fear about taking the further test and that the cost (£1350) should be viewed as just another 'extra' when buying the van...
similarly, for those at the other end of the age range, should apply for their group retention early when approaching their 70th birthday.
now i know in your case, that you have already 'lost' your additional entitlement, but as you are not in an immediate hurry to buy a new MH, is there a possibility of you getting these groups back, perhaps following an additional medical?
this process could run alongside your MH investigations which, in the first instance, would give you more first hand experience of what these monstrosities are like in the metal, to drive, to walk around, to lie in, to lounge in, to shower in, etc, etc?
it may be that you can get somewhere with the DVLA and this might make the 'tricky' part of this search (the 3500 kg limit) a bit easier.....
either way, just trying to explore all options.....
again, good luck, always HTH
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just to reinforce my above point re how 'difficult' it is in the real world (not from a catalog) to run a van at 3500 with a decent payload, Southdowns have a lovely Carthago C-Compactline 138 for sale....in fact its in 'the sale' with nearly £10k off.....
this is the smallest of their lightweight, slimline vans.....
however, the addition of ALL the packs and (pretty well) every other extra in the catalog, has not only added cost, but weight, too...
one extra the dealer added (a further cost option...) was the ('paper') chassis upgrade to 3700kg
OK, following a weighbridge visit, the customer might well decide that this van was, in fact, doable (for them) at 3500kg and the chassis could be replated back to 3500kg....
however, it shows that the dealer has a decent awareness of what can happen with 'fully loaded' (with options) vans....
of course, this is all before you actually put any real 'stuff' in it...
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OH noticed that the sink was smallish, and there was no drainer, she asked where one was supposed to put the wet dishes, was there a loose drainer supplied.....no idea.
Write your comments here...we bought a draining mat, easy to use, hang it in the shower while travelling or roll up in a drawere if tis dry.
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One of the reasons we gave up caravanning was our tendency to carry too much clobber. When we changed to motorhoming we were determined not to repeat that mistake but to ensure we stayed within the 3500kg limit even though we both still have some years to
go before hitting 70.It's harder now but we still manage it. We are willing to make the necessary compromises so that we can have a 3500kg van which doesn't suffer from damp. For example, we've never been away for more than 3 weeks at a time and we have never 'wild camped' for
more than 4 days at a time. It wouldn't suit everyone but we're not everyone!I know a couple whose motorhome would be overweight if they took the grandkids away. So the children's mother delivers the kids and their gear to the family friendly campsite, the motorhome stays on site, and they either walk or get pubic transport [the
kids think the latter is a treat!]. Not ideal but it works for the odd weeks away they want to see the grandkids.Forget trying to get a quart into a pint pot and work out whether a pint pot is enough to quench your thirst for motorhoming. We find 3,500kg remains surprisngly refreshing.
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Kj I know some might say I am biased, but here goes,We have had caravans from 1969 ,then we had two m/vans over about 11yrs 1st was a pvc which was small enough to go anywhere but to small,so we bought a coach built ,more space, still not as much as c/van in given length,we kept that for 7yrs,and used pulic transport or our cycles when going out,,but were finding as we got older the downside of getting out and about out weighed the upsides, we were not going down the road of towing a car, so we went bact to tugging and on our third c/van cannot see us changing, as most say if you are going beyond our shores where there is far more space and oprtunity to keep costs down
then a m/van is the choice ,but if in the UK a c/van and car is in MHO the choice 0 -
good post, JVB, not biased, just personal experience
a good point about the continent and its better environment for MH, as Kjell does travel there a lot....
so do we, and i would (at the moment) consider changing from a MH as it (and the locations) suit how we tour.
however, Another David and Eurortraveller also tour Europe extensively but do it with caravans, this is the way they prefer to do it.
so, back to the old chesnut, there isnt one way to skin a carrot (AMOBUTS
) so the decision can only rest with Kjell...this would have been a walk in the park on a 4.25t chassis
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".....and i would (at the moment) consider changing from a MH...."
I never thought I'd see the day.
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".....and i would (at the moment) consider changing from a MH...."
I never thought I'd see the day.
lol, you almost certainly won't
.....a little 'not' missing therehowever, as i get towards 70, and remain at reasonable fitness, i'll probably drop down to 3.5t just to make life easier (sorry Kjell if it doesnt seem easy to you so far...) re town centre restrictions which will inevitibly get tougher...
beyond that, if still have the inclination to travel (currently dont see why not, theres a lot to see out there) we may even get to a PVC (drive anywhere) or this might be the point where we decide to go back to using a car....which would (probably) mean a (blasted) caravan.....wash my mouth out
...i can hardly type the word let alone say it.....ill never be able to buy one....0 -
Approaching the issue from a different direction, perhaps there's a case for lobbying our MPs for a private members bill to change it to 4000Kg.
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CY, the article i was reading did mention this...
"the NCC continues to campaign at a european level alongside our partners in the European Caravanning Federation for an additional endorsement to allow motorhomers to drive a vehicle upto 4250kg with some additional training but without an additional test".....
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CY, the article i was reading did mention this...
"the NCC continues to campaign at a european level alongside our partners in the European Caravanning Federation for an additional endorsement to allow motorhomers to drive a vehicle upto 4250kg with some additional training but without an additional test".....
II also read about that, but it seems it could be a long time coming.
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".....and i would (at the moment) consider changing from a MH...."
I never thought I'd see the day.
lol, you almost certainly won't
.....a little 'not' missing therehowever, as i get towards 70, and remain at reasonable fitness, i'll probably drop down to 3.5t just to make life easier (sorry Kjell if it doesnt seem easy to you so far...) re town centre restrictions which will inevitibly get tougher...
beyond that, if still have the inclination to travel (currently dont see why not, theres a lot to see out there) we may even get to a PVC (drive anywhere) or this might be the point where we decide to go back to using a car....which would (probably) mean
a (blasted) caravan.....wash my mouth out...i can hardly type the word let alone say it.....ill never be able to buy one....wanting to keep below the magic 3500 as I had also read about these restrictions.
It does seem do-able if we are willing to compromise on a couple of things (mainly the air con) , so we are not giving up yet.
Towbars.......is it relatively easy to get one fitted to a MH afterwards? Factory fit seems really expensive. Is it any more complicated than on a car?
Sorry if I seem to be asking a lot of daft questions, but we do not buy "vehicles" that often, so have limited experience.
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".....and i would (at the moment) consider changing from a MH...."
I never thought I'd see the day.
lol, you almost certainly won't
.....a little 'not' missing therehowever, as i get towards 70, and remain at reasonable fitness, i'll probably drop down to 3.5t just to make life easier (sorry Kjell if it doesnt seem easy to you so far...) re town centre restrictions which will inevitibly get tougher...
beyond that, if still have the inclination to travel (currently dont see why not, theres a lot to see out there) we may even get to a PVC (drive anywhere) or this might be the point where we decide to go back to using a car....which would (probably) mean
a (blasted) caravan.....wash my mouth out...i can hardly type the word let alone say it.....ill never be able to buy one....I couldn't resist that
I agree that a PVC may well be the way to go and it was on our agenda last time but simply didn't suit. Perhaps in the future it will.
As for moving to a c*r*v*n in older age, I guess it depends which body parts give trouble. For us it was mainly the effort involved in fetching and removing water each day and winding steadies etc that caused problems. The other advantages of a MH such as
ease of travelling came as a bonus.0 -
".....and i would (at the moment) consider changing from a MH...."
I never thought I'd see the day.
lol, you almost certainly won't
.....a little 'not' missing therehowever, as i get towards 70, and remain at reasonable fitness, i'll probably drop down to 3.5t just to make life easier (sorry Kjell if it doesnt seem easy to you so far...) re town centre restrictions which will inevitibly get tougher...
beyond that, if still have the inclination to travel (currently dont see why not, theres a lot to see out there) we may even get to a PVC (drive anywhere) or this might be the point where we decide to go back to using a car....which would (probably) mean
a (blasted) caravan.....wash my mouth out...i can hardly type the word let alone say it.....ill never be able to buy one....wanting to keep below the magic 3500 as I had also read about these restrictions.
It does seem do-able if we are willing to compromise on a couple of things (mainly the air con) , so we are not giving up yet.
Towbars.......is it relatively easy to get one fitted to a MH afterwards? Factory fit seems really expensive. Is it any more complicated than on a car?
Sorry if I seem to be asking a lot of daft questions, but we do not buy "vehicles" that often, so have limited experience.
did you mention towing previously, i cant remember...
however, adding a towbar will probably be the death knell of any hopes of running the 598 at 3.5t...
i did post on another thread that an example from a towbar company showed that an average towbar from their range added around 180kg to the load on the rear axle..
not what youre looking for in an already marginal van...
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I did, yes, as we talked about towing the Smart and alternatively a small trailer if we had the GCs along with bikes.
Hymer options/price brochure lists the factory fit towbar weight as 63 kg if I am correctly interpreting the last column there as the weight.
It gives air con as 33kg, which is the weight of the unit we have on the van, so I thought I was working it out correctly.
Price is given as £1200, I presume it is £s.
There is also the noseweight of any trailer to consider, I think 50kg was suggested somewhere.
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So if you don't have AC and awning that will save circa 75kg. I don't think nose weight of the trailer counts towards the overall weight so long as you don't overload the rear axle.
I got an email from Rapido yesterday and they have an island bed on a 6m or 6.5m van for 2017 so may be worth seeing what's about before buying.
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As for moving to a c*r*v*n in older age, I guess it depends which body parts give trouble. For us it was mainly the effort involved in fetching and removing water each day and winding steadies etc that caused problems. The other
advantages of a MH such as ease of travelling came as a bonus.If winding steadies and collecting water are problematic, I would have thought that mobility 'on site' would also be problematic in the absence of a car.
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So if you don't have AC and awning that will save circa 75kg. I don't think nose weight of the trailer counts towards the overall weight so long as you don't overload the rear axle.
I got an email from Rapido yesterday and they have an island bed on a 6m or 6.5m van for 2017 so may be worth seeing what's about before buying.
if you were to weigh the van with the trailer attached, the nose weight would indeed be registered within the rear axle weight and would count as more than its actual weight (say 50kg) due to the pendulum effect of the distance behind the rear axle.
similarly, any towbar (Kjell says 63kg from the catalog) will cause more than this to be applied to the rear axle.
so the towball weight plus trailer nose weight would be 113kg together, but would be applying nearer 180kg ish to the rear axle.
as the MTPLM is arrived at by adding the two axle weights, any rise in rear axle is adding to the overal weight.
as rear axle weights tend to become compromised before actually reaching the MTPLM, this is starting to look like the key element rather than just out and out payload figures...
ive seen some reviews of the Pilote/Chausson/Rapido 6.5m island bed models but they can only be described as cramped.
quart and pint pot....
Michael, you run at 3.5t dont you with your Knaus island bedded model....
do you know your weights and can they give Kjell some first hand experience of a similar layout?
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Kjell, just to give you an extra bit of info.....some vanners decide to upgrade their 3.5t vans to (say) 3650kg.
this is a 'paper exercise' where just the registration li its are increased to allow the driver a further 150 kg total load...
HOWEVER, as there are no mecanical or structural changes required to acheive this 'change' the limits on each axle remain unchanged....generally for the Fiat 'light' chassis this is 1850kg front axle and 2000kg on the rear.
i suspect there is a weighbridge close to Tavelworld, if not they might well have some weighing 'pads' available for customers...
if you get to see the 598 in the flesh, get them to weigh you with OH on board so that you can see how the axle weights are in 'unloaded' state...
you can then do some number crunching on what you want to carry, items sited between the two axles will spread the weight accordingly, items placed in the rear storage area (or further back like towbar plus nose weight) will add more than their numerical
value to the rear axle and 'remove' weight from the front axle.so, say the towbar etc, might weigh 100kg but could place a 140kg load on the rear axle but reduce the front axle by 40kg, nett 100kg but compromising the rear at a faster rate....
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Michael, you run at 3.5t dont you with your Knaus island bedded model....
do you know your weights and can they give Kjell some first hand experience of a similar layout?
Write your comments here...BB we are plated at 3850 but in an earlier post I said that we are just under 3500 with a lot of extras. We have 2nd battery, Solar Panel etc. approx weights are below but it was 3450 (1950 rear and 1500 front) on a scrap merchant weighbridge hand written not printed!. I must say moving to the MH has been a great decision and I would really think what you actually need/use. We have only used the awning once just to test it so far but have not been abroad yet, Sat dish used a lot!
My post is below again.
"This is similar weight to ours which on a 3500 chassis would have 580 payload according to the manufaturere with driver, 20l water, gas etc. However having had ours weighed it was just under the 3500 with full tank of water, some clothing and no Mrs T! So just beware of what you add to the base, I just looked on line for a few of the extras we have and that you want which will all add up.
Awning 42kg
Electric step 13kg
Garage fixings 5kg
Fiat pack with Cab A/C, heated mirrors, passenger airbag, cruise etc. 26kg
TV 12kg
Auto Box 17kg
Door Screen 4 kg
Carpets 5kg
Oven 10kg
Battery 20kg
Sat TV 15kg
A/C 30kg
Solar Panel 20kg
so by just adding a few goodies it adds up to over 200kg without your kitchen equipment, garage essentials, clothing, towels etc."
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As for moving to a c*r*v*n in older age, I guess it depends which body parts give trouble. For us it was mainly the effort involved in fetching and removing water each day and winding steadies etc that caused problems. The other
advantages of a MH such as ease of travelling came as a bonus.If winding steadies and collecting water are problematic, I would have thought that mobility 'on site' would also be problematic in the absence of a car.
Not at all, CY. Mobility on site doesn't involve bending and lifting. The absence of a car makes no difference.
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thanks, Michael, good stuff....what it does highlight is the rear axle issue...
you are running at 1950, limit is 2000kg....with no MrsT aboard...and various other stuff...so despite your apparent 'spare' 350kg, you are in fact are already on the limit, unless you have had any chassis 'tweaks'....
this is the issue that Kjell will have, though 'his' van has a slightly shorter overhang and overall length....
it was also fun taking ours to a local scrap merchant's on day one....he was a bit surprised that he thought we were crushing it so soon...
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