The small print on payloads
Considering a MH, looking at payloads as we would prefer to keep to under 3500kg.
When a MH manufacturer gives the MIRO, what does that include? Is there a standard they all have to go by?
If not, I presume they must say somewhere, but it's not easy to find on the websites.
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Khe'll, there used to be a std....driver 75kg, gas and fresh water 90% full...tolerance +\- 5 %
these days, it can be anything, the are supposed to say in the small print, normally found in downloaded brochures...
at a stroke, vans miraculously got 100kg or so more payload by just omitting the water...
be very aware, I would weigh ANY via before signing....even sim vans can vary....5% of a 3000kg MIRO is 150kg, that's a lot of 'tolerance'
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It would be a fairly simple thing to be done by the NCC as all UK caravans and motorhomes are built to their standards which are no doubt based on various sets of legislation/regulation. Manufacturers are very coy about exact weights of their products and
I don't understand why you don't get a weight certificate with every new caravan/motorhome as it leaves the factory rather than the vague plus/minus figure which I suspect always errs towards the plus side!!!David
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One of the things that some caravanners forget (not you K) is that when they are towing there are other things often carried in the car, other than passengers, that have to come of the payload for the leisure vehicle. 4 average people are probably 300kg.
We have a range of outdoor coats etc in the car, tool box, chairs and tables. A cool box with little in but we also start off with 30 cans of diet coke, 3 or 4 1 litre bottles of scotch, 4 two pint bottles of milk as OH and I drink different types from each
other and so as to avoid damage to fridge door rack these go in the car when travelling. Flask and bags etc. and they must add up to at least 30 to 35kg0 -
The payload figures given by manufacturers have usually been worked out on the back of a fag packet and do not relate to the real world.
The only sure way of knowing is to get the MH weighed for around a fiver at a local weighbridge.
Include driver, full tanks of fuel and water, full gas cylinders and spare wheel.
On top of that try to work out how much weight one months clothes (if you're going for that long), fridge/freezer filled, dog and meat (around 50kg for our dog and food), table and chairs, tool kit for every known emergency and the usual
bits and pieces you normally take will add up to.Then remember the potential vineyard or brewery you may wish to bring back from a foreign trip and it all adds up.
Suddenly any payload is greatly reduced and having to leave the wife/partner on the roadside after a Police weight check may be a problem so getting a vehicle with the highest actual payload could be the better option.
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Oh, right. I have no concerns in the car! I was thinking of caravanners moving to motorhomes when all that load adds directly to their loading.
this is a very good point, Easy....
its an easy assumption to make, thinking that a van as used by Mr WhiteVan Man has far more capacity than a normal towcar.
some 3500kg vans are already loaded like removal vans when they leave the factory, so not a lot for 'user payload'.
many 'pundits' (some professional) on forums like MMM's outandaboutlive feel that 500kg is the absolute minimum a two person van should have (this is after gas, water deductions), and i side with this....hence my concern with vans that have 300kg or less,
and this now doesn't (often) include any allowance for water...its all well and good for folk to say 'they dont travel with water' but this will severely limit any impromptu 'aires'/no-facs travel.
so, i say, think very carefully about payload, especially the lack of it
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This is one that OH likes, payload looks reasonable.....
However.....she has just discovered that air con is not an option on this particular model, which is odd. Presumably no suitable hole in the roof.
As yet I have not found where it says what is included in the MIRO.
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Kjell, a lovely van....
i cant find Hymer's definitive statement but they have produced some examples which is intended to demonstrate that a premium van (Exsis-i) is perfectly possible at 3500kg... and even at 3 ton apparently...
see this link...
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Kjell, a lovely van....
i cant find Hymer's definitive statement but they have produced some examples which is intended to demonstrate that a premium van (Exsis-i) is perfectly possible at 3500kg... and even at 3 ton apparently...
see this link...
Indeed, OH cannot be faulted on her choice, only on the price!!
However, as we do not do well in very hot weather, the air con is an essential. Need to check it out a bit more.
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whilst it may not be specifically a factory option, a dealer fit item should be a possibility.
roof space can sometimes be an issue, especially if looking to add a solar panel and/or a sat system.
however, a little planning with the dealer should result in you getting what you want.
RE: price....like many continental vans, there will be a brochure full of packs/options which will ramp up the price...some of these you wont have much choice over as (pretty much) every van will come out of the factory with them.....
i did try hard with our local Hymer dealer to do a deal on an Exsis-i (a 578 actually) but we just couldnt get close enough, which led me to Carthago...
i would have suggested the C-compactline 145QB as a direct rival for the Exsis 598 but it doesnt have the separate shower.
BTW, i did say I'd measure the 'teleporter' shower in our van..
its 74 cm x 64cm, plenty large enough for us...
for comparison, the 598's separate shower is 74 cm x 74 cm, so pretty similar.
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Another question.....never been to a show before.....are the manufacturers there displaying all their models, or is it just dealers?
How likely is it that we will find most of the models we are interested in on display?
generally its dealers managing (together) a stand for a manufacturer.
for example, last year on the Hymer stand, our local guy was heavily involved, as were Travelworld and Lowdhams....there may also be manufacturer's representatives aswell.
Martin Neale at Highbridge os normally in the know re the models that will be at the show, and he will be happy to help you.
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whilst it may not be specifically a factory option, a dealer fit item should be a possibility.
roof space can sometimes be an issue, especially if looking to add a solar panel and/or a sat system.
however, a little planning with the dealer should result in you getting what you want.
RE: price....like many continental vans, there will be a brochure full of packs/options which will ramp up the price...some of these you wont have much choice over as (pretty much) every van will come out of the factory with them.....
i did try hard with our local Hymer dealer to do a deal on an Exsis-i (a 578 actually) but we just couldnt get close enough, which led me to Carthago...
i would have suggested the C-compactline 145QB as a direct rival for the Exsis 598 but it doesnt have the separate shower.
BTW, i did say I'd measure the 'teleporter' shower in our van..
its 74 cm x 64cm, plenty large enough for us...
for comparison, the 598's separate shower is 74 cm x 74 cm, so pretty similar.
Yes, will specifically ask about the possibility of getting air con fited to that model.
We actually have a fairly new (3 year old) Dometic B2200 on the caravan which ideally we would want moved to any new outfit (we still have the mini Heki it replaced) and we have a Gaslow system we would also want to switch over, so a bit of negotiating to do on that.
Solar panel will likely be on the list, and I would very much like a sat system.
OH was looking through all the "packs" and options.....totally bewildering. And does ramp up the price quickly.
Thanks for the shower measurements, 64 sounds quite tight, 74 sounds better. I can see OH will be spending quite a bit of time standing in all the showers having an imaginary scrub!
Must measure our current one for comparison. It's a curved, "walk-in" type so the whole thing is quite big, but the actual showering area is of course much smaller. The entrance bit does give a useful bit of additional elbow room, and makes it all feel really spacious. Going to be difficult to match it.
Picture here.
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yes, the 'packs' thing can give you a headache, but even the uk brands are now adding 'cab' or 'winter' or other packs...
remember, a MH is the merging of a caravan type habitation unit and a commercial vehicle....both elements can be 'blinged up' with extras, so twice the opportunity to spend cash....
just ticking the 'air suspension' and 'self levelling' boxes on the order form might well add the cost of half a top range caravan.....see, its so easy....
re: dealer extras.....your current kit can be used to your advantage...we had a sat system, solar panel, twin batteries, bike rack etc on our Bolero....so i said to the dealer that i wanted to have the same features on the new van....
i told him i didn't mind if he spent time taking off the old and transferring to the new one or (if the trade prices were favourable enough to sweeten the deal) not to mess about and just put new stuff on....
so, he kindly 'threw in' a new fully auto Teleco sat system, a new SP (larger than our old one), added a second leisure battery, and installed a new bike rack in the garage.....he also transferred over our two inverters and the gaslow system (with a nice
new remote filler in the skirt).....he also installed new socket for the inverter to power the sky box and located permanently the box itself with all wiring...and a new Cello TV in the bedroom...(there is a built in one in the lounge).....i even got a 4.5m awning at trade (half) price.....
so, there is obviously much more margin for MH dealers to play with, compared to caravans......so, ask nicely for what you want.....you may be totally stunned and delighted....we certainly were....
i had previously had a similar conversation with our local Hymer dealer re the 578 but got nowhere....he was even going to bill us for transferring over our old items.....
it all depends on the dealer.....
good luck.
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In the 2016 pricelist brochure [page 64], Hymer say:
"Mass in roadworthy condition according to EN1646-2 incl. basic equipment (75kgs for driver, filled fuel tank, water tank in driving condition filled with 20 litres, gas in aluminium cylinder 100% full, and electrical cable) in basic option. Mass in
roadworthy condition (and payload or number of persons possible) varies according to motor or equipment options or depending on optional equipment attached. Deviations within the factory tolerance limits are possible and allowed."Hymers come in fairly basic trim levels to which dealers add. All the options are included in the Hymer pricelist brochure including the weight of the options.
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In the September cc mag there is a bit about the Swift group for 2017 ,in the motorvan section ,there is a mention of one make that has a starting price £10,000 cheaper than last year,so i think they are following on the "continental" way of pulling people in with a "starting price" which looks reasonable, but the "packs "that most will need push the prices well up
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This is one that OH likes, payload looks reasonable.....
However.....she has just discovered that air con is not an option on this particular model, which is odd. Presumably no suitable hole in the roof.
As yet I have not found where it says what is included in the MIRO.
Write your comments here...Kjiin
This is similar weight to ours which on a 3500 chassis would have 580 payload according to the manufaturere with driver, 20l water, gas etc. However having had ours weighed it was just under the 3500 with full tank of water, some clothing and no Mrs T!
So just beware of what you add to the base, I just looked on line for a few of the extras we have and that you want which will all add up.Awning 42kg
Electric step 13kg
Garage fixings 5kg
Fiat pack with Cab A/C, heated mirrors, passenger airbag, cruise etc. 26kg
TV 12kg
Auto Box 17kg
Door Screen 4 kg
Carpets 5kg
Oven 10kg
Battery 20kg
Sat TV 15kg
A/C 30kg
Solar Panel 20kg
so by just adding a few goodies it adds up to over 200kg without your kitchen equipment, garage essentials, clothing, towels etc.
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Thanks.....will need to get a brochure.
I like the sound of your dealer BB, where does he keep himself?
Staffordshire....Go European Motorhomes....Carthago main dealer, alomg with Hobby, I think..
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In the September cc mag there is a bit about the Swift group for 2017 ,in the motorvan section ,there is a mention of one make that has a starting price £10,000 cheaper than last year,so i think they are following on the "continental" way of pulling people
in with a "starting price" which looks reasonable, but the "packs "that most will need push the prices well upyes, its their Autocruise PVCs....they are stripping them right back, but keeping the four basic layouts and letting customers 'customise' them....i don't really get it, unless they are looking for a cheap,entey point to compete with the likes of Tribute
and other continental brands....£55k was an awful lot for a PVC.in actual fact, the conti brands are adding more kit for the uk market, rather than taking it away.....funny old world
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This is one that OH likes, payload looks reasonable.....
However.....she has just discovered that air con is not an option on this particular model, which is odd. Presumably no suitable hole in the roof.
As yet I have not found where it says what is included in the MIRO.
Write your comments here...Kjiin
This is similar weight to ours which on a 3500 chassis would have 580 payload according to the manufaturere with driver, 20l water, gas etc. However having had ours weighed it was just under the 3500 with full tank of water, some clothing and no Mrs T! So just beware of what you add to the base, I just looked on line for a few of the extras we have and that you want which will all add up.
Awning 42kg
Electric step 13kg
Garage fixings 5kg
Fiat pack with Cab A/C, heated mirrors, passenger airbag, cruise etc. 26kg
TV 12kg
Auto Box 17kg
Door Screen 4 kg
Carpets 5kg
Oven 10kg
Battery 20kg
Sat TV 15kg
A/C 30kg
Solar Panel 20kg
so by just adding a few goodies it adds up to over 200kg without your kitchen equipment, garage essentials, clothing, towels etc.
totally agree, ensure the dealer knows you are working to a weight limit and make it being 'workable' a condition of sale, and that you will be weighing the van prior to handover....should get his attention
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After much research, we have come to the conclusion that the only way this would work for us is to have a MIRO of 2900 or less, this will let us add the options we want.
But if the MH actually was up to 5% heavier, it would not work, so we would certainly make that part of the deal.
With this in mind, it seems the only models, with the spec we would want, that will work are the Hymer Exsis i 578, 588 and 598, and possibly the Exsis t 598, though it only has 3 berths.
Now have to see them somewhere, see what deal can be done on the caravan, if we like them. Look into whether we might find a low mileage used model with the options we want.
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Kjell, from a 'roominess' perspective, the wider cabbed Exsis-i, with its A-class cab, will feel far more like your caravan (enormous windscreen) than the standard Fiat cabbed Exsis-t.
not much in it weight wise but the 'i' will be about £8k dearer model for model.....and will give you the extra double berth with the cab drop down.....far better than the cobbled together third berth in the 't'....
as i said, give Martin Neale at Highbridge or anyone at Travelworld who will tell you which models will be at the show.
Travelworldarent 'that far' from the NEC so if the model you want to see os tat the show, they might have it there....or at Lowdhams, Nottingham.
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