Unladen nose-weight

Had the same problem with a Bailey Valencia a few years back. When your dealer gets back you should check the factory quoted nose weight. Our dealer was good enough to put the van on a spring balance which confirmed the 85kg our Milenco read. Always worth
checking using bathroom scales in case the gauge is faulty. 105 kg is excessive.

We had to try quite hard to get down to 100 kg which is the Alko limit, irrespective of the car's limit. You may find that you have to severely restrict the loading in the front lockers and put heavy equipment at the rear side of the axle. We had an internal
water tank forward of the axle which I filled up first time out. The noseweight was 120 kg! That's the last time we used it.

We did carry some load in the rear bathroom which helped the noseweight but of course this is not ideal from a stability point of view.

Problem is that, certainly on the Bailey Alu-Tec's, the wheels were moved backwards to improve towing stability. Don't know if they loaded their test bed up, but I guess they did. I was advised, by Bailey's, to load to the rear of the axle to arrive at my
90kg noseweight and I haven't had any problems so far infive year that is.

Was your caravan level when you checked your nose weight? If not it will make a big difference. I use the Reich CWC scales and can get a difference of +/-30kgs either way when winding the jockey wheel through the level position.

One should not be checking the noseweight with the caravan level unless it happens to be level when hitched up.to the car as well, especially if you note such a big difference depending on hitch height.

Noseweight should always be checked with the caravan standing on level ground and at the same attitude as when hitched up, whether nose up or nose down.

Surely, with a single axle van even moving the hitch up or down by say +/- 100 mm can't change the noseweight by +/- 30 kgs [by 60 kgs] unless the van's centre of gravity is dangerously high?

Yes, the figure did seem rather excessive to me, too. Some time ago I calculated that for a caravan of average size 100mm shouldn:t make more than 10kg difference.

Write your comments here...

We too did the calculation, though we had to guess the height of the C of G, which as occid points  will affect the result. And we calculated even less of an effect than Lutz. However we read the mantra that, the van must be level, so often on this forum, that I Emailed Milenco for their advice, as follows;

Dear Sir,

I have been told that it's important that the caravan is on level ground when measuring nose weight.

As some caravan sites slope signs significantly, please will you advise me as to whether it is necessary for the caravan to be on level ground before using the gauge.

With thanks.

Jenny

Dear Jenny,

We can advise that the caravan would need to be on level ground when measuring the nose weight.

Kind Regards

Milenco Limited
Blackhill Drive
Wolverton Mill
Milton Keynes
MK12 5TS

So its up to you all, who you believe. I'm inclined to our own mathematics.

Well it's easy enough to do the calculation provided you know the C of G height but I am sure the difference is negligible for a few inches inclination. Of course, if the hitch is one foot in the air above level then you might notice it. Our drive slopes
down but there was never any difference in the Milenco reading, level or inclined.

Milenco are right. The caravan should be standing on level ground, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the caravan has to be level, too. It would be coincidence if it were.

Write your comments here...

Our own, real life experience coincides with hitchglitch's. Lutz, if you would be prepared to repeat your earlier calculations assuming  a 100mm difference in ground level due to the slope, you may be surprised to find a similar result. If you would then
be prepared to publish your result we will finally be able to put this to bed. When I have time I'll confirm what hitchglitch is saying by raising our Milenco gauge 100mm from the ground to simulate the slope. All of this is basic science/ mathematics, long
overdue for a clear outcome.

Unfortunately you need to know the Centre of Gravity location which I imagine is not available. You can work out the distance forward from the axle given the nose weight on level ground and the MRO of the van but not the height above the axle centre. If
I get time I will run some sample calculations. My guess would be C of G of about 1 metre above axle height, no more. Most heavy items are no more than .5 m centre above the axle.

If a nose weight gauge is used, the heavier the van the lower the nose will be. Thus a high nose weight should be measured on an upward slope. The only way to get a correct figure with readily available equipment is to use a bathroom scale with a pole of
the correct lenghth to equal the hitch height in use. 

The ground condition ought to have no effect at all.

All the lever system is seeing is a fulcrum about the line between the two wheel bearings.

However, true horizontal, not parallel to the slope should be used as the reference, that might be a challenge to identify without getting the spirit level out.

Write your comments here...

Milenco are right. The caravan should be standing on level ground, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the caravan has to be level, too. It would be coincidence if it were.

Write your comments here...

Our own, real life experience coincides with hitchglitch's. Lutz, if you would be prepared to repeat your earlier calculations assuming  a 100mm difference in ground level due to the slope, you may be surprised to find a similar result. If you would then be prepared to publish your result we will finally be able to put this to bed. When I have time I'll confirm what hitchglitch is saying by raising our Milenco gauge 100mm from the ground to simulate the slope. All of this is basic science/ mathematics, long overdue for a clear outcome.

Unfortunately you need to know the Centre of Gravity location which I imagine is not available. You can work out the distance forward from the axle given the nose weight on level ground and the MRO of the van but not the height above the axle centre. If I get time I will run some sample calculations. My guess would be C of G of about 1 metre above axle height, no more. Most heavy items are no more than .5 m centre above the axle.

Write your comments here...

The critical issue is, I believe, that if the rear of the van is low, the CofG will be rotated a tiny amount to the rear and vica versa for a low nose. Hence we can expect to see tiny reductions/ additions to nose weight. As has been pointed out the CofG is likely to be less than a meter from the axle and the weight/ placement of equipment will lower it further still.  Milenco gauges are supposed to be accurately calibrated and constructed to match the mean prescribed tow balll height. Therefore a gauge standing on a slope which rises by, say 100mm at the hitch will increase the gauge height be 100mm and rotate the CofG rearward by a tiny amount. Bathroom scales have no more provenance for accuracy than Milenco, and should be ignored. At the end of the day, for all practical purposes, sloping ground can only make small differences to accurate measurements.

I always checked nose weight first time out in the season. Most people load their vans the same way every time so it shouldn't vary much.

If you take a van of 1600 kg, a nose weight of 100 kg and a distance from axle to hitch of 4 meters you can see that the C of G must be only 250 cm forward of the axle (a 16 to 1 ratio). You can see the problem for the manufacturer that a small change in
C of G makes a massive difference to noseweight. Amusing also that if the C of G was very high (which it isn't of course) you wouldn't have to raise the nose too much before the centre was over the axle i.e. zero nose weight and close to tipping point!

Actual nose weight has never been a critical factor for me because I have always used heavy 4x4's   But what does worry me when I see it, is the way that some owners tow with too high a nose height, because they have reduced the nose weight too much.

Too high a nose height, increases the air flow under the van and reduces stability.  Even with my heavy 4x4 I notice that when delivering my van empty for service it is much more "jiggely" on tow than when properly loaded.  I now actually deliberately add
front weight under those circumstances to ensure rock steady stability.

TF

TF

how can they have to high a nose weight if they have reduced it to much 

LOL.

Write your comments here...sorry TF misread height as weight 

It was a good move of Bailey to shift the bottles over the axle because the weight of the bottles varies enormously. Having said that, in the good old days it wasn't unusual to have the gas bottles close to the axle. As they say, "what goes around comes
around."

Lutz, No evidence, - just experience gained by many years of towing, and of sitting in a patrol car watching the vans with a high nose ride height being clearly less stable than those running level or slightly lower at the front.

More than happy to be shot down on that but you won't change my mind!

All the best

TF

I always checked nose weight first time out in the season. Most people load their vans the same way every time so it shouldn't vary much.

If you take a van of 1600 kg, a nose weight of 100 kg and a distance from axle to hitch of 4 meters you can see that the C of G must be only 250 cm forward of the axle (a 16 to 1 ratio). You can see the problem for the manufacturer that a small change in
C of G makes a massive difference to noseweight. Amusing also that if the C of G was very high (which it isn't of course) you wouldn't have to raise the nose too much before the centre was over the axle i.e. zero nose weight and close to tipping point!

The gas bottle will change during the season and I doubt if things like food and drink will remain the same.