European Electric Hook Up ...
Comments
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believers in 'the problem' imagining that all the 'non-believers' are gong to fry themselves, ruin their equipment, whizz their computers backwards in time, or permanently disable their caravan
I think that's something of an over-statement and I certainly have never made any such allegations. However, the electrical systems in UK caravans have been designed for a specific polarity (for instance having only single pole switches) and it only seems
sensible to respect this. After all, it is a trivial matter to check and reverse polarity.What we used to do years ago may not be the most appropriate or safest thing to do now......It's not that long ago that asbestos was freely used in all sorts of buildings (although I'm not suggesting that reverse polarity
is as risky!)0 -
I read time and time again comments form posters (many of whom are very experienced in overseas caravanning) which ridicule the idea that RP is a risk
i suggest that all those who make such statements and those who disagree should tell us what qualifications they hold in electrical engineering and in the differences between UK and continental wiring standards. Then we can make an informed judgement.
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Well, I am a fellow of the IET, Chartered Engineer and a former member of the IEE Wiring Regs. Committee. I am quite happy to provide factual advice and a balanced view of the risks (which are as stated in my comment above).
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I read time and time again comments form posters (many of whom are very experienced in overseas caravanning) which ridicule the idea that RP is a risk
i suggest that all those who make such statements and those who disagree should tell us what qualifications they hold in electrical engineering and in the differences between UK and continental wiring standards. Then we can make an informed judgement.
Sorry, I'm guilty as charged! Apologies, but sometimes even the experts with all the qualifications in the world disagree about the risks - so those of us that choose to 'take our life in our hands' are entitled to our own conflicting views as well!
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No problem Val. Risk can sometimes be quantified but like "safety" is usually subjective.
In response to an earlier comment, most caravans now seem to have double pole main circuit breakers. Although these are recommended in the Regulations it has probably got more to do with standardisation for export.
A frightening number of people don't know how to wire up a UK plug, sometimes connecting the Earth wire to the live. This is why fixing up your own "Reverse Polarity" adapter is never officially recommended. A wiring error like that could definitely prove
fatal and would be a case of the cure being worse than the disease. That's why any electrical advice from an official source (like the Club) is always carefully worded and errs on the side of caution. Members of course are free to make their own choices.0 -
It was the 'nationwide' tv programme's campaign that led to legislation requiring all electrical goods to be sold with a 13 amp plug already fiited. The campaign arose from the number of accidents and fatalities caused by people wiring plugs incorrectly.
So I'm (Chas) with hitchglitch on this - don't offer advice on electrical safety unless you're qualified to give it.The willingness to dispense folksy wisdom on electrics never seems to be the same when it comes to gas appliances - why is that?
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The problem is that the Caravan Club advice differs. On one PDF document it suggests making up your own lead, on another making sure an electrician does it, and on the third this is the advice:
The caravan mains electrical installation should not be used whilst a reversed polarity situation exists. Frequent travellers to the continent
who are electrically competent often make themselves up an adaptor, clearly marked reversed polarity, with the live and neutral wires reversed.At least the Caravan club explain which wires to reverse. I've seen replies to posts on other forums, whch just suggesting 'reversing the wiring' and I have seen posts on other forums, including pictures, when
someone posted a picture of a lead which was wired incorrectly, fortunately actually asking 'Is this correct' (hopefully before using it!This is one of the reasons why there are suggestions that people just ignore the issue. Making up a 'wrong' lead, would be more dangerous than the perceived problem it's meant to solve!
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We have had a detector plug for reverse polarity in the caravan which we use on every site we visit in Europe and have done for 13 years. We have a made up lead ready in the caravan and have used it quite a few times. Our motto is better to be safe than
sorry.DianneT
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Well, I am a fellow of the IET, Chartered Engineer and a former member of the IEE Wiring Regs. Committee. I am quite happy to provide factual advice and a balanced view of the risks (which are as stated in my comment above).
Write your comments here...
Its nice to see a post from a really authoritative source indeed hitchglitch is probably one on the best qualified people around to explain reversed polarity.
This highlights the potential value of Club Together when it is working as it should.
Oh and this post isn't trying to be ironical .
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Well, I think that Hitchglitch has put this very clearly in his posts (above). I too am a (retired) Chartered Engineer, by the way.
Perhaps, now those with no knowledge, training or understanding of the subject will cease posting advice that is potentially dangerous.
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Well, I think that Hitchglitch has put this very clearly in his posts (above). I too am a (retired) Chartered Engineer, by the way.
Perhaps, now those with no knowledge, training or understanding of the subject will cease posting advice that is potentially dangerous.
Whilst I can see what you are getting at I think in the context of a caravanning forum people are being asked for their views. It would be nice always to have a tame "expert" always on hand but often experts are the worst at keeping things simple!!!. Where
the problem lays is when people reply to posts rather than saying what they do and why they then go on to either complicate matters getting technical or being critical of what others do. I suspect, and this happens all across the internet, the OP who thought
they were asking a simple question goes away even more confused than when they started!!!David
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Why I do it:
The risk from reverse polarity of harm is extremely low, so low in fact that its hardly worth considering unless you are prone to being silly and love sticking your hands or metal 'tools' into appliances that are still plugged in.
Having said that, its the way I was apprenticed and that is there is only one way, and that is the correct way for every instance. If my van and appliance expects the 'live' to come down a certain wire then I'll ensure it does.What I do: I use this, if my tester shows 'RP' I plug into the other socket, everything is then as it was intended to be in my UK spec caravan.
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I notice no-one has criticised the Caravan Club about making your own RP lead! I, for one carry a RP lead and 2 pin French lead. Plus a spare in-case someone needs help.
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Well, I am a fellow of the IET, Chartered Engineer and a former member of the IEE Wiring Regs. Committee. I am quite happy to provide factual advice and a balanced view of the risks (which are as stated in my comment above).
Write your comments here...
Its nice to see a post from a really authoritative source indeed hitchglitch is probably one on the best qualified people around to explain reversed polarity.
This highlights the potential value of Club Together when it is working as it should.
Oh and this post isn't trying to be ironical .
Humour is the oil of polite society, of course sometimes a little sand gets in.
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one reason foreign caravans may use double pole MCBs is because foreign pluged appliances do not have fuses like we do in our 13A plug tops, we are using the fuse in the plug top to protect the cable to the appliance . we are expecting this to operate to
rather than the main incoming 2 pole MCB tripping., If you reverse the line and neutral on the incoming supply on your british caravan with its single pole MCBS they will now be in the neutral and not operate in the event of an earth fault and if they operate
in the event of a short or an overload the appliance will still be live.MCBs 2 pole or 1 pole do not provide protection against electricution or electric shock.
You only get dead once,
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The earth leakage protection (rcd) will still operate irrespective of the location of the fuse. Actually it doesn't matter where the fuse is as long as you take the plug out or isolate the incoming supply before poking your fingers into an appliance.
The incoming breaker will provide short circuit protection (as it does on the continent) and is probably two pole anyway as I said above.
The difference in wiring practice is that in the war years the Brits introduced the 30 amp ring main to save copper but appliance cables couldn't take 30 amps so fuses were fitted to protect the cable. On the continent the circuit breakers provide overload
protection. So, as a result of our clever money saving idea we have ended up with a rather different domestic system which is what creates all the misunderstanding and confusion.0 -
This is why so many thousands of Europeans die from electocution in their vans each year
Interesting fact that! Where do you get your figures from to prove it?
Exactly. Over the years, I've more jolts from a mains supply than I care to remember and I'm still here to write this reply.
Write your comments here...
As Sheldon Cooper would ask, "sarcasm?"
However, joking aside I believe that European switched outlets, unlike UK versions, break both the live and the neutral lines when in the OFF position thereby negating shock issues with reversed polarity.
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The earth leakage protection (rcd) will still operate irrespective of the location of the fuse. Actually it doesn't matter where the fuse is as long as you take the plug out or isolate the incoming supply before poking your fingers into an appliance.
The incoming breaker will provide short circuit protection (as it does on the continent) and is probably two pole anyway as I said above.
The difference in wiring practice is that in the war years the Brits introduced the 30 amp ring main to save copper but appliance cables couldn't take 30 amps so fuses were fitted to protect the cable. On the continent the circuit breakers provide overload
protection. So, as a result of our clever money saving idea we have ended up with a rather different domestic system which is what creates all the misunderstanding and confusion.I can't agree with you about the location of the fuse.
as for the main incoming MCB providing short circuit protection, I take it we not bothered about discrimination.
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And of course all this is supposing that both the caravan socket and appliance plug have been wired correctly
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The earth leakage protection (rcd) will still operate irrespective of the location of the fuse. Actually it doesn't matter where the fuse is as long as you take the plug out or isolate the incoming supply before poking your fingers into an appliance.
The incoming breaker will provide short circuit protection (as it does on the continent) and is probably two pole anyway as I said above.
The difference in wiring practice is that in the war years the Brits introduced the 30 amp ring main to save copper but appliance cables couldn't take 30 amps so fuses were fitted to protect the cable. On the continent the circuit breakers provide overload protection. So, as a result of our clever money saving idea we have ended up with a rather different domestic system which is what creates all the misunderstanding and confusion.
I can't agree with you about the location of the fuse.
as for the main incoming MCB providing short circuit protection, I take it we not bothered about discrimination.
The biggest risk is that switching off an appliance does not isolate the live which is why I said remove plug before inserting finger. In normal operation having the fuse in the neutral does not affect overload, live to earth faults and live to neutral faults. Discrimination is really not that important in a caravan and even with fuses in the live it is quite usual for a fault to trip the rcd and/or the main breaker. As the thread states, reverse polarity has some very small risk but almost impossible to quantify and far less than many other potential hazards in a caravan.
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Someone will be along also saying its the wrong colour 
but its fine for parched grass 
