Driving licence 3.5t limit - gov't petition for increase of cat B to 4.2t
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The Club’s suggestion to me was that I raise at the next AGM - which is next October, but the petition expires in April!
So you have written to club already then?
A club potentially can lobby for the benefit of some of its members
At what percentage of the club's membership would you expect to reach before it did this, and how how would it know when this 'critical mass' would be reached? @Innocent_Bystander
And I can't imagine why people are putting up presumed objections on H&S grounds rather than not being able to take extra children away away on holidays due to the current law on MH weight?
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Which at the time, it was considerably more than some, from recall it was when caravans owners were more than half the membership @peedee, somewhere about 65% plus I think and it was then the Caravan Club. I think it was around 2014?
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The question you ask is not a matter for me, but the club to decide, and as I said I recognise that to take direct action like lobbying for something is likely a matter for AGM - I have not looked but I would expect the there to be articles apor standing orders defining such things as determining what proportion of votes should trigger something, etc. all I expected the club to do is to bring the existence of such a petition of clear potential interest to a propoetion of motorhome owners to tge attention of members as soon as they became awatpre of it, without need for any Club position on it, just as news is brought to us of all sorts of thing of interest to some.
As for reasons some may have for objection, suppoort, etc, you would have to ask them. I had no involvement woth the petition so have no idea what was in the background, just becoming aware of it a week ago and having just signed it myself my membership renewal for the club prompted me to contact them, and thence post here.0 -
Seeing from another thread that English is perhaps not your first Language I've having difficulty in reading that correctly but that is my fault not yours.
Put simply you're asking the club to lobby for this change in the law, that is quite clear. There are many things that members would like the club the lobby for. You have asked for this one thing very clearly. But what level of support do you think if required before the thinks it should. If you cannot answer that then really you cannot be asking the club to do so.
Equally you cannot state that posters are stating objections due to safety considerations (at 12:28) then say I have to ask them what their objection are? It works both way.
I feel there is no, or little support in this club, or rather in CT for this petition. The club has 350,000 members, only a very small amount of those on CT, latest figures suggest an almost even split of caravans and other types of outfits, probably more 'others' than caravans and in the 'others', probably more 'campervans' and smaller MHs. I've often wondered how many members actually use club sites sites too. Good luck.
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Probably what many non motorhomers don't appreciate, and why should they, is that motorhoming under current weight restrictions is not very family fiendly because of the limits imposed on weight. Don't get me wrong low payloads in caravans can be annoying but the advantage the caravanner has is that their passengers travel in the towing vehicle so don't impact on payload but with a motorhome passengers take up part of the payload which is generally fairly tight if you want to keep to the 3500kgs limit. Payloads on motorhomes are generally around 500kgs, sometimes less. Even the passenger, if its just a couple, has to come out of the total payload. Add in a couple of teenagers and you begin to see the problem.
David
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You say “Put simply you're asking the club to lobby for this change in the law” - actually all I have asked the club to do is bring the petition to the attention members so that anyone interested can know about it, not needing any input at all from the Club, just like many an item of news of potential interet to either caravanners or motorhomers. I have not suggested anything else at this stage, though I have identified that I think it is the sort of thing that might be legitimate for the Club to get involved in, though I recognise that that would be a matter for an AGM to determine. Whether I have enough personal interest to take it to the next AGM is another matter - to me the change requested in the petition is simply a logical step that, putting UK on a par with EU, would give greater choices to people, make motorhoming in a very popular vehicle size band easier because it reduces the risk of exceeding payload (many 3.5t motorhomes have exceedingly tight payload capacity, my children example simly highlighting),, and it open the door to greater availability of automatic transmission vehicles. And as far as I can see there is no adverse effect or risk related to this specific change with a 4.2 tonne maximum. Meanwhile there should be - and I expect will be- .better health checks on drivers, particularly (but maybe not exclusively) as they age.
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I would totally agree, but if a caravaner were to think about changing over then surely they would do their homework and consider all?
And after all the current legislation has been around for some considerable time yet I've seen families on site so there must be ways around it either keeping under the weights or having additional item son the driving license?
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We have a caravan, but in the past have quite often considered changing to a MH. Payload and automatic transmission availability certainly put us off. That plus the price of MHs!
I have signed the petition as I feel it would be useful to MHers, allow more sensible payloads and more choice of vehicles.
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@Cornersteady Yes one would hope any potential buyer of a motorhome would do their homework and when people ask on here about changing to a motorhome payload is almost always mentioned, by those with experience. I suspect the problem is that it can be difficult for a prospective motorhome owner to visulise what the payload in reality means especially if changing from a caravan the payload could seem very generous. Just an example a motorhome might have a payload of say 500kgs which I imagine most people would think sounds quite generous. Most motorhomes have a fresh water tank of between 70 and 100 litres.If they intend to travel with the tank patially full, for use en route or even some off campsite parking you can see that a large slice of the payload is used up. OK these are thing you learn. As Kj suggests the subject of payloads can put people off. If the issue is only about weight the logic is this change should already be inplace? Someone totally new to our hobby with an ordinary post 1997 licence can drive a 3500kgs vehicle and can also add a trailer of 750kgs to that vehicle without any further requirements to change their licence category. WhatI fail to comprehend is what is the difference between someone towing a combined weight of 4250kgs without any changes to their licence yet someone with a single vehicle wanting to drive a vehicle weighing 4250kgs needs to up grade their licence, why? I like to think I am a pretty experienced tower of caravans, over 30 years an driving motorhomes 12 years and in my view its far easier, and probably safer to drive a motorhome than tow a caravan!
David
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Agree David. Our caravan when loaded is 1900kg, our tow car must be at least 2400 kg when we go on holiday, probably more, and that is just with 2 of us and only a porch awning. It could carry a much bigger load. So the combined weight is at least 4300kg, which is well below the gross train weight of the vehicle.
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Thanks @DavidKlyne.
So can anyone tell me how much does it cost, and what is involved, to upgrade their current licence from 3.5 to 4.2t?
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I’ve no personal experience, Corners, but I hear of folk over the age of 70 who have renewed their cat C entitlement quite simply. Some have even reinstated C after letting it lapse.
I believe it entails completing a form, whether online or on paper I’m not sure, and obtaining a medical report regarding fitness to drive. GPs can do this and charge whatever they charge but there are also companies I’ve heard of which will do the medical for somewhere between £50 and £100. The report is then forwarded to DVLA who get their medics to OK it or reject the application.0 -
Thank you TW, I got the impression from @Innocent_Bystander with his post of:
Actually maybe people want to buy a 6m van conversion motorhome, not very big, but want automatic, and find that in 3.5t format the payload is so small that they would not be able to take their children with them in the two passenger travelling seats, let alone carry anything heavy. Real life example.
that it was some some difficult problem that stopped people with families buying MHs and having holidays? But if it is as simple as you say and involves no extra driving test and a modest sum I cannot see why the real life problem as described by @Innocent_Bystander could not have been resolved by a visit to their GP? I assume as they could afford a MH the modest £100 could not have been a problem so what was?
In light of what you have said TW, there is no need for this petition is there? At least with the current law a is visit required to the GP and a medical check is made, if this goes through people can upgrade without one? Not really safe in my view no matter the age?
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Indeed, as with most things related to motorhoming and caravanning, no need as such, because yes people can get themselves a C1 lcemce. (If a post 1997 licence I believe it does require an additional driving test, but the cost is probably not huge). However the change proposed by this petition would make things simpler, and cheaper even if it is only £100 or whatever every licence renewal (3 years over 70). With anyone wanting an sutomatic transmissioon vehicle, when the payload starts to get vanishingly small, it also would reduce the risk of unintentially going overweight given that people do not normally have ready access a weighbridge after loadng up. (I have heard of numerous instances where this has happened, including people being stopped by French police and required to empty contents of their vehicle at the roadside until under the limit, plus fine. though purely hearsay and I have no idea of actual incidence.) Overloading, knowingly or not, is potentially a serious matter because if I understand correctly it may invalidate insurance. But indeed there is no need for the change, so no need for the petition - but at the same time there is no adverse consequence so why should people not support the change, which signing the petition may do?
Your final comment about “upgrading” is unfounded, because tge petition only relates to increasing from 3.5t to 4.2t, which as others have pointed out is not an increase in risk. it is not as if the petition is requesting C1 capability with its permission to drive far larger vehicles up to 7.5t. Health certification for people as they get older is a separate issue, and ibdeed in my opinion should apply equally to all vehicles, whether 7.5t, 4.2t, 3.5t or 1.9t.
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Frankly, I haven’t got sufficient interest to go into all those points but, on the weighbridge issue, it’s quite easy and often free to get a van weighed, although I accept things may be different on your island, and it’s something you’d only need to do once.
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To add category C1 to a licence post 1997 can cost anything between £800 to £1200 depending where the training is done and how much is required. It can be higher if there is a requirement to drive professionally and a Certificate of Competance is required. Being over 70 and with grandfather rights, I pay my doctor £120 every three years for an eye sight test and medical to retain my C1+E. It can be a very long drawn out process and seems to be more difficult the older you get. My last renewal took 5 months even though I had no health issues.
peedee
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Thanks. I think the driving professionally is not relevant here to this forum. And the amounts you mention is a very small sum relative to the amount of a (new) MH of that size would cost I would suggest?
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You saying it is unfounded and it being true is of course two different things of course. And of of course there is an increase in risk. If one person gets through without a medical that shouldn't then there is an increase in my view.
One final thing I still don't understand, if your real life problem quoted above, why didn't that family simply have a medical, take the extra training if needed, and take their family on holiday? I think far quicker than waiting for the law to change in their favour?
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Really, no more skill at all? I find that difficult to comprehend? There is the extra weight to deal with, extra momentum in braking and cornering? So why is there a certificate of competence issued and I assume a test when driving professionally?
Also the current law has been in place for some considerable time and no one has thought it of no big deal to change it if no more skill is required? Unless you're suggesting it's a money making exercise?
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Also the current law has been in place for some considerable time and no one has thought it of no big deal to change it if no more skill is required? Unless you're suggesting it's a money making exercise?
but there have been considerable advance in vehicle technology making driving safer and easier. I gather there will be more from the Government on Wednesday especially >about eye tests<
peedee
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Eye tests in another issue but no more skill is needed as you claim? Technology can and does make driving safer and easier but should not replace driving skill, and of course what happens when that technology fails.
And yes it does - my in-built forward facing camera safety system got obscured by snow this morning so a whole host of safety features failed, autonomous emergency braking failed (based on people, cylists, pedestrians, vehicles), automatic speed limit detection failed, lane assist detection failed, keep lane assist detection failed, automatic road sign display system failed, and a host of other associated things failed as well.
Anti lock braking, stability control, anti skid, traction control… and all the other advance technology you talk about can fail and one shouldn't be reliant on them to replace good driving skills as you appear to be suggesting?
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@Cornersteady I would suggest that towing a caravan (having done both) requires far more skill than driving a slightly heavier solo vehicle such as a motorhome. Obviously not true in all circumstances but I think motorhomers tend to drive more causiously due to the size of the vehicle. Some motorhomes can increase their payload by up-plating the vehicle weight, in fact some manufacturers offer this service to customers if their licence permits. So you could have two identical vehicles with different max weights. Not a scientific fact but I always found my motorhomes felt steadier on the road when fully laden compared to when I took them for service with the vehicle empty of most of its contents. I think I would find it more of a challenge to drive a Ferrari sports car than a heavier motorhome!
David
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my in-built forward facing camera safety system got obscured by snow this morning so a whole host of safety features failed, autonomous emergency braking failed (based on people, cylists, pedestrians, vehicles), automatic speed limit detection failed, lane assist detection failed, keep lane assist detection failed, automatic road sign display system failed, and a host of other associated things failed as well.
That will teach you to clear off the snow in the future.
peedee
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@DavidKlyne Actually I do you know you are correct. I passed my test in 1977 as soon as I could after turning 17 and at university I drove a 3.5t minibus as in those days compared to now not many students had driving licenses. Up to that point all I had driven was my dad's 1.6 Hillman Avenger. Did it require more skill? Yes it most certainly did. I also drove a few minibuses for at various schools in my career.
Yes it is easier driving a full 3.5t mini bus than a heavy 4x4 and caravan. Especially with a full compliment of singing 16 year olds in the back.
But that's not my point. I was suggesting that, unlike PD, if I were to drive a 4.25 having only driven 3.5t it would require a newer set of skills.
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I have a licence to ride a small motorbike but I would like to have a licence to ride one a bit bigger.
It cant be harder to ride a slightly bigger bike and I promise not to go faster. But I don’t want to have training , , or another test, or a medical, or pay money, and I don’t want a three year licence, that would be tedious - I want a licence to last until I am 100.
So all I need is some clown to start a petition and get loads of signatures and the law will be changed for me. Or not3 -
@peedee You jumped in a bit too quick there with your merry dig, did I say I was driving? I was actually but really, I'm saddened that you think so little of me that I would set off before clearing the whole screen which I did. I also do.
However further falling covered it once more while driving, for some reason it is above the wiper blades and rain can have the same effect and has done so in a downpour a few times (both of scenarios are covered in the manual). It also happened last autumn when a large leaf covered it in those gales. It's not a major safety issue provided one of course has the basic driving skills in the first and doesn't become too reliant on these things.
I suppose that shows how ill advised is your argument is about relying on, or using, technology to make driving safer and/or as a basis to change the law as you suggested? As I said these things can fail.
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@Cornersteady I think having driven mini buses ( much more of a responsibilty than a motorhome being responsible for all those people?) I think you would find driving a 4250lgs motorhome well within your skill set. Ok there are motorhomes and motorhomes and some of the A class ones are like a small bus but generally a 4250kgs motorhome probably would not be much larger, if at all, that its 3500kgs counterpart.
@eurortraveller don't know much about motorbikes but surely there is a world of difference between an A to B type everyday mortorbike and a super bike, the latter probably having a power to weight ration far larger than most sports cars? Sadly there are accidents involving motorbikes butI am not sure that is a reality with motorhomes?
David
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It was overheard in a showroom - when the salesman told them (apparently it was a new requirement that they bring payload to people’s attention), they remonstrated at the ridiculous position, and walked out in disgust. I suspect that to a majority of people the thought of having to go and take what they might see as a truck driving test is daunting and they very likely don’t even look into the reality of doing it, but either buy a model than they want, , or restrict the accessories and features and weigh everything they take on board or buy a smaller van.
With vans getting heavier due to added safety and emission limiting features, and increasing popularity of automatic transmissioon ( remember that the proportion of people with automatic only licences is increasing), the unsuitability of a 3.5t limit will only worsen, while ability to drive a 7.5t vehicle is overkill.
Meanwhile your comment to that effect that if you can afford a motorhome you can afford £1000 for another driving test is unhelpful at best. Why do you have such a rooted objection to this petition and the proposal in it? Regardless, I thank you as you are helping keep this at the top of the recent comments list.2
