Current Outfit. Is it legal? Help!!
Yesterday I put a deposit on our first family caravan and I want to ensure that before the first journey is started that I have the correct and legal car to tow.
I've done a lot of research, but a few points still cause some confusion in knowing that I'm not putting mine or others safety at risk on the road.
Ive looked into GVM, Kerb Weights and MTPLM, etc and for those who can offer advice here then I'd really appreciate it.
I have a car with the following specs
GVM - 2120kg
GTW - 3520kg
Kerb Weight - 1555kg
The caravan I am hoping to still be able to get has the following spec
MRO - 1310kg
MTPLM - 1490kg
Working out if my outfit can work as a combo I've done the following calculation based on being a novice tower and reading into the 85% rule (to help until I'm more experienced)
(MPTLM) 1490 ÷ (Kerb Weight) 1555 x 100 = 95.8%
Knowing I am already some 10% over the recommended 85% novice rule, it appears I'm still legal to tow.
What is confusing me however is does the GVM for my vehicle (2120kg) plus the MPTLM of the caravan (1490kg) put me over my legal limit to drive based on my licence type?
The DVLA guidance from the .gov website isn't clear here. As per the licence changes in 2021 I know that the BE has been added and I can now tow a caravan, but the information given on the .gov website only states that I can tow a trailer up to 3500kg, but does this include the vehicle as well as if it does then the total for my current outfit would be 3610kg.
Sorry for the mass of information, but for those thata aged to stick with this post I hope you may be able to help.
Many thanks
Allen
Best Answers
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The legal weight you must not exceed is the Gross Train Weight of your car of 3520kg.
Your car's GVM is 2120 and the caravan's MTPLM is 1490. Together that makes 3610. Therefore, it will not be legal irrespective of your licence type.
Your licence with B+E will allow you to drive a vehicle with a fully laden weight of up to 3500 and to tow whatever is legal for that vehicle to tow up to a combined max of, I think, 7000kg. Sorry but the combination quoted will put you in breach of the law.
Your caravan, although not light, is not unusually heavy so I recommend you get a heavier tow car which will make towing easier, safer and more stable. Don’t forget you also need to consider axle weights and nose weight on the towball.
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The cars GVM is a maximum as is the caravans MTPLM. My understanding is as long as the actual GTW is not exceeded then the combination is legal ( both car and caravan loaded below their respective maximums). However, I think it is unlikely you will be able to tour much below the MTPLM, the question is what is the weight of the car fully loaded in touring trim? The noseweight of the caravan will need to be added to the weight of the car. I think it requires a trip to a weighbridge to ascertain a realistic weight of the car fully loaded for touring.1
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It’s my understanding that the plated weights are the ones used in ascertaining GTW but, of course, if any individual weight is discovered to have been exceeded then that too is an offence.
As the OP has only reached the stage of putting a deposit on a caravan, he cannot hitch up and take the outfit to a weighbridge. I would suggest this is the point where he needs to pause and rethink. I don’t believe the described outfit to be a good match.
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@Tinwheeler thank you for that clear advice. Just getting lost in all the numbers a little, but going off the cars GTW as you say would put me 90kg over the towing capacity of the car I'm assuming?
Looking a another care with a GVM of 2210 and a GTW of 4120 I imagine with the same MTPLM of 1490 that I should be all legal and safe here?
@MikeyB thanks also for your comment and help. I was also trying to work out if the GVM of 2120 for my current vehicle was based on it being empty (no passengers but a full tank of fuel for example) but loads of different abbreviations being used when trying to Google the answer.0 -
2210 + 1490 =3,700 so inside the Gross Train Weight of the second car and a much better bet and legal👍🏻.
With regard to Gross Vehicle Mass the word 'Gross' is the clue. Here’s what Google says -
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@Tinwheeler what would I have done without you today I don't know!
Looks like its off to the dealership for a vehicle trade in and upgrade!1 -
If not me, then someone else would have put you straight.
Presumably you’re buying the caravan from a dealer. I remember the days when the salesman would check you had a car capable of towing the van. Now they’re only interested in making a sale regardless of any other factor.Incidentally, if you tell us the make and model of both the proposed car and the caravan, someone will be sure to analyse the pros and cons of the outfit for you.
Good luck. I hope you get sorted.
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@Amb832 in additions' to @Tinwheeler's TW's excellent advice if you click this link here you can find some further reading from the club before tomorrow. Also some good advice for beginners here.
I notice you're not a member but if you were you could use the club's matching service and even ring for technical advice on the helpline, you'll get the same advice as from TW but it's another useful advantage of being a member (not an advert btw) in addition to some great sites and savings.
I too remember the days when a sales people used to do this checking for you.
Hope you get it all sorted, it's a great way to holiday.
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@Tinwheeler so long as someone could put me straight then that is all I could of asked for 🤣
Funny you should say that about the caravan salesman. I'm sure not all are like that, but indeed I've questioned being our first venture into caravaning and turning up in the car we proposed to tow it with, that he could have run some of these checks with us before taking the deposit.
The car I currently have which is looking like it won't do the job safely is a 2020 1.6 Diesel Hyundai Tucson.
Looking to trade in for a 2019 2.0 Diesel VW Tiguan.
The Caravan I still hope to get is a 2012 Lunar Cosmos (or known as the Quasar) 5560 -
@Amb832 Have a look at a KIA Sorrento, we tow with one and it's excellent.
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I've seen car salesmen show the same irresponsible attitude when asked if a certain car will tow their caravan. It’s frightening really.
I’m a Hyundai fan, but there’s no doubt the Tucson isn’t man enough for that job @Amb832 .
I’ll leave the nit picking of the pros/cons to somebody else but just point out, if you’re not already aware, that the Lunar company is no more which might mean scratching around scrappers for spares if it’s for something specific to Lunar.😀
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The GTW (Gross Train Weight) is NOT the sum of the car's GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) and the MTPLM of the caravan. It is the sum of the GVM and the axle load of the caravan. This because the caravan's noseweight which is included in the MTPLM is also included in the GVM, so by adding GVM and MTPLM together, one would be counting noseweight twice.0
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@Amb832 there are a number of free matching services available on line. Just enter "car caravan towing match" and take your pick
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@Lutz but that is not what the definition is on the Gov.uk website:
'The gross train weight is the weight of the fully-loaded car plus fully-loaded trailer and must not be exceeded.'
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@Lutz is it really? by who? No disrespect but I find that hard to believe. The same error by the RAC, the NTTA, and numerous others. Perhaps you could actually post/link the definition from there?
So a police check would have to take into account the nose weight in working out if an outfit (each one being different) is legal? Also as the manufacturer sets the GTW so how would any manufacturer know all possible nose weights? mmm.
From the gov.uk on, probably the very first web page that drivers would check about weights and their driving licenses:
Vehicle weights explainedVehicle categories on driving licences can depend on the weight of the vehicle - the different terms you might see are explained below
The plate or sticker may also show a gross train weight GTW This is the total weight of the tractor unit plus trailer plus load
So according to you something so prominent has an error? This is quite shocking. Please post your definition, that has nose weight, and I'll ask the club to take this further perhaps.
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@Amb832 Looking to trade in for a 2019 2.0 Diesel VW Tiguan.
A good towcar - we bought one 6 years ago when getting a caravan, ours is a 2019 2.0 Diesel. Now back to a motorhome, but for 5 years the Tiguan was used for towing, it was an excellent towcar, no problems at all.
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@InaD that's reassuring to hear. I've already had a Tiguan R-Line from new back in 2017, but as an automatic is gulped fuel and was only on a 3 year lease with no option to buy and COVID came around so at that point it was scrambled for what car you could get your hands on whilst all the dealerships were closed. Had an F-Pace Jaguar for a few months that we had all manner of issues with and finally ended up with a new Tuscon.
The wife wants a Q5 Quattro AWD but she's living in a dream world to afford one of those.
How did you find the Tiguan on MPG? I've seen people getting around 29MPG pulling caravans of around 1580 MTPLM.0 -
@Cornersteady thanks for all the great advice. Not a member (yet) but will inevitably become one once we finally get the car exchanged and start hitting the open road.
I drove a big Kia (might have been a Sorento) over in the U.S on holiday this year. Was a nice car, but my wife can just about reverse park the Tuscon never mind anything bigger. It's our only family car so have to bear in mind what's beneficial for her to go to/from work.
I'd love a big 7 seater though. Was looking at used Toureg's but the fuel company puts me right off, even when not towing.0 -
@nelliethehooker thanks. I tried one of these last night. It confirmed the Tuscon was not able, but unfortunately I doubted what the result told me as the kerb weight it registered for the car I have wasn't what was declared on the V5C when looking at the mass in service. This is when the confusion started for me and thankfully I came into this forum for some friendly and great advice.0
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@Tinwheeler already checking what we can get trade in wise for the Tuscon. Will be a shame to get rid of it as it's been solid and reliable for the 5 years we have had it.
If only it's GTW was higher like the Tiguan then we would have been ok 😣
That's good to know about Lunar. The reason for going for the one we have done is purely based on its layout. Of course it's condition and reliability is important having said that.
Biggest worries I researched on Lunars was that they were prone to damp issues.1 -
The Gross Train Weight (GTW) is logically the sum of all axle loads, i.e. that of the front and rear axle of the towing vehicle and the axle load(s) of the trailer. That is also what the police or whoever would measure if the outfit is subjected to a roadside check. The front and rear axle loads of the towing vehicle would include the noseweight of the trailer when the trailer is hitched and the axle load of the trailer is just that, not its MTPLM.
It is rare for anyone to check whether the MTPLM of the trailer is exceeded because to do that, one would have to unhitch and put the jockey wheel on the weighbridge, too. That takes valuable time and is therefore only done if excessive noseweight is suspected, but even that would normally show up when the rear axle load of the towing vehicle is measured.1 -
By that logic, one wonders why trailers have a MTPLM at all if it counts for almost nothing🙄🧐🤨 😫😵💫
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@Lutz all very interesting but if you could post that legal definition you were talking about that apparently makes the Gov.uk site in error?
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@Amb832 the caravan we had was a Coachman 460 VIP, which was uprated to 1500 MTPLM. Depending on terrain and speed we got anywhere between about 26/27 to 32/33. Ours isn't an R-Line, it's a 2.0 Diesel 4 Motion automatic. We've been very happy with it and still are.
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The definition of MTPLM is as follows:
(7) ‘technically permissible maximum laden mass’ (M) means the maximum mass allocated to a vehicle on the basis of its construction features and its design performances; the technically permissible laden mass of a trailer or of a semi-trailer includes the static mass transferred to the towing vehicle when coupled;
(The term MTPLM applies not only to the caravan but also to the car. Gross vehicle weight is an obsolete term, still often used colloquially with reference to a car's MTPLM, but has no direct relevance in current legislation).
From the above it is clear that the trailer's noseweight is transferred to the towing vehicle when hitched and therefore part of it's overall weight (or mass).
By the same token, the definition of towing limits is:
(9) ‘technically permissible maximum towable mass’ (TM) means the maximum mass of one or more trailers that may be towed by a towing vehicle which corresponds to the total load transmitted to the ground by the wheels of an axle or a group of axles on any trailer coupled to the towing vehicle;
Note that the above definition specifically refers to the "total load transmitted to the ground by the wheels of an axle or a group of axles on any trailer" and NOT to the total mass of the trailer.1 -
@Lutz Not any clearer at all. But I posted from the Gov.uk website that:
'The gross train weight is the weight of the fully-loaded car plus fully-loaded trailer and must not be exceeded'
You posted that was incorrect and the website had errors, as you posted:
The gov.uk website is known for its errors. What is stated there is clearly not in agreement with the definitions as laid down in legislation.gov.uk
I asked for you to show how this is clearly not in agreement (about gross train weights being the sum of car and trailer) yet you talk of MTPLM and TM which were not included in that first statement at all? Who mentioned gross vehicle weight?
Anyway this is going round in circles and off topic. I'll use the definition as in the statement given by the government in Gov.uk, and various other official websites who maybe are perhaps not as informed as you but at least are based in this country and I assume know the law here, and I'll leave it there. Thanks for your answers to me though.
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How can gross train weight be the sum of gross vehicle weight of the car and the MTPLM of the caravan if both those terms include the noseweight (which they do as indicated in my previous post which was copied out of UK legislation)? As I've said before, you'd be counting the noseweight twice if you add the two together.
The simplest way of understanding it all is to say that the gross train weight is the sum of all axle loads, which would be just another way of defining it. Then you can forget all mention of noseweight if the caravan is hitched up to the car.1
