What Would a UK Club Type Aire Look Like
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We have booked on day of arrival Steve, all you do is book your date and opt to pay full amount.
I think staff working terms and conditions will enable some sort of cover for up to 8pm arrivals, as it does now. So making the arrival cut off 8pm wouldn’t impact much, unless it did prove popular and there was a good few takers. I am sure it won’t be as popular with staff perhaps, but someone is often in office well into evening. But touring isn’t a 9-5pm lifestyle, it has to accommodate more hours of the day, which the Club in fact allows for with its 8pm cut off. (I nearly always tick arrive 7-8pm, just in case we get held up, or find something very interesting to do on arrival day.) It would require a later in the evening reconciliation of arrivals/payments, but most of it is going to be computerised, card payments only if on the day late. Sure things like this could easily be sorted. Same with discounting empty pitches after say 6pm, if a system can price going up, surely it can be programmed to go down at a given point in time? That would give a two hour slot to pick up any unsold pitches on the day, based on a one night stay only. Option to extend the stay in the morning at the non discount price of course, which might tempt some to extend their stopover?There are all sorts of possibles, the main thing is to not have many empty pitches, better to have some income in, rather than see folks drive past. We would pay £20 per night to do a stopover on a Club Site, no hook up. Arrive 8pm, on our way by 10am. It’s basically just a legal, safe sleepover. 🙂
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The fast check-in system does not currently integrate with bookings made on the day of arrival. So if you arrive late you risk not being able to enter the Club Campsite.
I have always assumed that’s another bit of club miss information, something they are very good at. Unless they’ve changed something I thought the latest arrival was currently 8pm whether you had booked for automatic check in or not. I assumed it should read. So you won’t be able to enter the site using the automatic system.
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Well you've answered your own question and enlightened yourself there PD. That's one possible cost in that fix alone. Also possible the introduction of ANPR and it would need a before 8pm arrival of course
But even without any introduction costs- unlikely, where is the wisdom in introducing something untested that may lose income? I would hope the club would do some homework before any quick changes based on what people post on here? Perhaps speaking with people who use club sites regularly? A survey?
Also the way the clubs DP operates, when pitches are low the price goes up. I've shown that before.
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CCP have been looking to establish a presents in the UK for at least four year to my knowledge. But every approach they have made has been rebuffed by the likes of the local authorities and so called interested parties such as campsite operators and others. The non-fac sites CAMC are closing could be ideal but I doubt it will be allowed to happen. I certainly hope they do manage to get a foothold in the UK and that their expansion into other countries around France continues.
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An RFID card solution would actually cost more, the club would have to enter into a contact with the RFID card provider, plus an annual operating fee, also that solution would be outside of the clubs control. Whereas the club already uses ANPR and it already has a payment system.
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RFID is everywhere and very low cost because of it. Think about it in everyday life.
Contactless Payments. Mobile apps such as Apple Pay allow you to pay for your purchases with a simple wave of your smartphone. ...
Room and Security Access. ...
Passports. ...
Pet Chipping. ...
Inventory. ...
Healthcare. ...
Wallets. ...
Loyalty Cards. ...
The list is endless.
CAMC's ANPR system is very limited and experimental and not easy for all to master and use. It also means some function are without the CAMC and members control. Where an RFID system such as that used by CCP is not.
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You don’t need a smart phone to use a camping car park site and wouldn’t if the system was used by the CAMC. In there case you don’t even need a computer to put money on the card, as you can use the terminal at the Aire entrance. If the CAMC used such a system I would doubt they would want to go to that expense, therefore you would need to utilise a pad or laptop and have internet access. Either at home or on the move.
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CAMC's ANPR system is very limited and experimental and not easy for all to master and use.
What's the actual evidence for that? Not easy to use or master? I haven't read anything like that anywhere?
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I was just pointing out that with RFID and the system used so successfully by CCP on a network three or more times bigger than CAMC there are many different ways of interacting with the system. As SteveL points out you can use the terminal at the gate. I prefer to charge the card through internet banking securely at home or in my van - simples 😉😁. That's my choice, others differ.
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I didn’t understand that comment either CS. We used it at Lady Margaret’s Park. It was easy to use and speeded entry onto site significantly. It’s not quite so easy if you don’t opt for automatic balance payment, as you have to pay the balance 24 hours before. However, all the CAMC needs to do to sort that out is make automatic payment compulsory, as it is with the other club.
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"CAMC's ANPR system is very limited and experimental and not easy for all to master and use. It also means some function are without the CAMC and members control"
Like you, I’m not a CAMC member but, unlike you, I haven’t a clue about its ANPR system🤷🏻♂️.
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The club's ANPR system worked perfectly well for us dinosaurs at Clachan this year.
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Well you've answered your own question and enlightened yourself there PD. That's one possible cost in that fix alone.
It strikes me that the requirement to book at least before mindnight on the day of arrival to use the ANPR system is something that needs changing to a near real time system anyway so that members can book on the day of arrival and still use the system efficiently. There are currently only four sites this applies to and the Club has committed to, and I quote, "continue to evolve this service to ensure it works as efficiently as possible"
The introduction of "Quickstops" would enhance the touring experience of motorcaravan owners without effecting those wishing a longer stay. It may even encourage motorcaravan owners who are not yet members to join? There are at least 200,000 out there!
peedee
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PD you asked to be enlightened about start up costs and you answered that for yourself, there will be some.
As to ANPR yes I agree, I've said bring it on to all sites so not sure what your quote is there for?
So there will be start up costs, it will affect long term stayers as those discounts you want will have to come from somewhere, why should long stayer subsidise this? Will it attract more MH? The club is more attracting MHs now, when I see 7 or 8 out of ten SP taken by MHs on a regular basis across a number of sites I think they are.
What you're proposing is untried and untested and the club should do its homework before committing. Perhaps it has, in 2021 they were looking at it to see if it's viable. Maybe it isn't?
If there is such a demand as you say, why isn't someone else doing it? Or if they are then why should the club follow? Growing membership, highest ever, more MH than caravans members, certainly more MH on sites, maybe just maybe the club is doing something that attracts those who want to tour in the 'club way'.
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The Club will need to move forward to survive in the long term. It will need to take account of changes to the market. It is already taking note of the increased number of motorhomes and their differing touring habits. Any industry expert you read or listen to talks of the slump in caravan sales and the increase in motorhomes. OK so some motorhomes use club sites, fine. But there are lots of club members that don’t, or who use them rarely. In the longer term the club will need to attract those members onto its sites. Other organisations may well be developing Aires but that will ultimately reduce the pool of those using club sites. Angus seems to be the latest area making a big push to get Aires developed in its area with details of how to do it, support available etc being published. Their argument is that the service is complementary to full blown sites. But every night spent on an aire is a night not spent on a site. From the perspective of the club, from a business perspective, it needs to attract as many as possible to its facilities. I repeat, in the longer term, the club cannot stagnate, it will need to change in order to survive.
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It’s a simple equation for us. I look at all the options in an area we might tour, and choose possibles based upon personal criteria that suit us. Then I look at the cost of a 12 hour stay, and ask myself which is offering me the best value. I know that in the first category, the options, will be Club Sites we like. But then I look at the second question and think do I want one night for £40, or do I prefer to have two, even three at the other options that are almost as nice? (Bearing in mind we are happily self sufficient). That’s why, at the moment we will drive past empty pitches on a Club Site, and stay elsewhere.
This is possibly going to become an issue for Club Sites, as more and more folks purchase campers and small Motorhomes. A percentage will join the Club, but I think a greater percentage will not. The Club is uniquely placed in that it doesn’t have to offer something different just to MH’s/campervans, it is set up to do the same for caravans/trailer tents as well.
Members who are happy to book in advance, use all the available facilities, pay the dynamically priced option will still be getting what they like, at a price that suits them. But if any income can be derived from an on the night empty pitch, time limited, and even no electric included, then this is going to be extra income, not a subsidised stay. The site is open, functioning, staff paid, by far the largest overheads already accounted for, so filling an empty space, at a x%? discounted rate is going to give late income not expected. Ok, there might be a tiny element of water and waste involved, which will cost, but almost everything else is covered. Covered even more if the one night stay translates into another standard priced stay. It should be considered as a way of attracting new users, those who routinely go elsewhere because of the high priced one night stay. Some might be tempted to include Club Sites as part of a tour, rather than as we currently do, dismissing them for a one night stop. Food for thought….
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why should long stayer subsidise this?
For the same reason CS that I subsidise children play areas and dog walks every time I stop on a club site. Besides, it won't be subsidising. It's club site investment, the same as when the club install Glamping pods on sites or upgrade grass patches to hardstanding or put in metres as not everyone will use the electrics. It's an infrastructure cost, tax deductible. Do you say that you shouldn't subsidise the installation of drive over waste grids for Motorhome use? Same principle.
The club is more attracting MHs now, when I see 7 or 8 out of ten SP taken by MHs on a regular basis across a number of sites I think they are
There is probably a good reason for their use by M/Homers. Firstly the need to replenish water supplies easily. Secondly the need to dispose of waste water easily. Thirdly the demographic of the users. I bet most of them are OAPs. Fourthly the guarantee of getting a Hardstanding pitch. 3 of those points probably apply to yourself and the reasons you choose a SP. Finally as noted by the club the percentage of touring members are now Motorhome owners so they are more likely to make the majority of stayers on an SP.
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With a tiny bit of system alteration, a bit of awareness training for staff around new procedures, there aren’t any additional costs. The infrastructure is there, the staff requirements are there, I suspect the customers are there as well if it’s promoted robustly. How many folks choose a CL, CS, pub stop, etc…. as a travel stopover?
One night only
Applies to all outfits
Hook up or not based on price choice.
Cannot be taken up before 6pm or after 8pm (5pm would be better, but Club will know what times are less busy)
Applies only to a standard pitch, not SP, Premium.
You might have to take an allocated pitch.
Price? Around £15-20 depending on Site/with or without hook up.
Still might be more than some would pay, but I bet plenty would, including us. And let’s face it, if we will, being notoriously choosy on price, I bet others will🤣
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I think using one section of club users to subsidise another section who just want to stay a shorter time and pay less is not the same thing, and no I want the club to offer the same to any member, that is to be able to stay on site irrespective of outfit and number of dogs and number of children (regarding your drive over grids) that is the club being all inclusive. I'm not sure why you've mentioned that as I've never alluded to that ever. But of course no one is forced to join or use the club but once they join and turn up on site they can use as much or as little as they need or want.
No most of them are not older at all (OAP - not heard that for a while btw) just the usual cross section, and certainly in peak times, mostly families.
Firstly the need to replenish water supplies easily. Secondly the need to dispose of waste water easily. Thirdly the demographic of the users. I bet most of them are OAPs. Fourthly the guarantee of getting a Hardstanding pitch. 3
Sorry but that does not make any sense to me. To replenish water they have to connect to the tap on the pitch and bring out their own hose and and then disconnect later, just like on a MH service point, same effort though in fact less at the service point as the hose is already there. To dispose of waste water on a SP requires connecting a hose, again brought with them, from the waste water outlet to the drain, usually a few meters away and then away again at the end or before driving off with some bending down needed, I would think just putting the outlet over the drive over grid is far easier and the same effort?
I'm surprised, as an old hand of CT, you mentioned the guarantee of getting a hard standing, this was perhaps true a number of years ago but with the selection of pitch type on booking this is just not valid anymore at all. Also on the many sites I use it's all HS now no matter SP or standard
Again your reasons do not make sense for the extra £5 - did you forget that? I choose a SP for continuous H&C water, perhaps like MHs and I've been doing that long before I was an OAP, actually I'm not one now.
My point is if the club can fill its SP to MHs for the extra cost then it's attracting that sort of tourer it wants and doesn't need to start discounts and losing income.
I'm not sure why it has to be a club site all the time. If the demand is there and others are providing it then those who want that type of touring will go there, the ones that want, as you put it full fat sites, will go to club sites.
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I like the posts above, I get tired of bashing my head against a brickwall and at times I wonder whether it is worth the hastle and membership. Nice to see some support.
Great first paragraph TTDA regarding your process for choices of where to stay, I am in the process of planning a UK tour and that is exactly my thinking when considering places to stay.
I would be happpier with ... cannot take up before 4p.m., especially in the winter months and I think £15 to £20 a night for an outfit and two people might be a bit optimistic when you look at the prices of a non facility site or typical CLs with hardstanding and EHU. While some may not make full use of facilities, I think the Club would also have to protect itself against the overzealous
peedee
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"Do you say that you shouldn't subsidise the installation of drive over waste grids for Motorhome use? Same principle."
WN, I’ve said this many a time. If MHSPs were not provided, MHs would block ordinary service points, probably block site roads as well and certainly cause queues of irate caravanners waiting to fill their Aquarolls. Therefore, MHSPs are to every site user's benefit and disadvantage no one. As an ex-caravanner you will no doubt see both sides of that particular coin if you ponder the point.
Hard standings - I understood they are now bookable🤷🏻♂️
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I fully understand that TW, old hand that I am. As you can see it was a question to make the point that it was an infrastructure cost.
We seem to have got stuck on the idea that some of these ideas are going to be subsidised by other members and that it is not fair. As far as I can tell they wouldn't be subsidised at all, no more so than any other non used facility by every member. As Ttda points out the empty pitch is gathering no money at all. Not much point to it. Best to let it to a passing member for a reduced time at a reduced cost
I'm sure that CS is seeing full sites but then he goes to sites that are well known for attracting excellent occupancy rates. There are plenty of other sites that do not otherwise there wouldn't be the need for discounts, lower deposits etc would there?
I'm sure the club hierarchy would do some research or maybe they have but I fear we may not know the answers.
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You actually said it is the same principle, WN. It's that comment I disagree with.
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We seem to have moved from the Club providing motorhome Aires to how the current system could be adapted to meet the demand for short one night stopovers, perhaps at a lower charge? Whilst that might be attractive to a percentage of motorhomers (none of us know how many) it could be equally unattractive to those that enjoy their time on site. Other than perhaps a Friday night most campsites are relatively quiet from 5.00pm onwards so whether those that like to use the site as a place to relax would won't to be disturbed by extra traffic is open to question. Perhaps there might be the option of a reduced price stay if a pitch was booked and paid from mid day onwards on the day of arrival? However I can't imagine the Club would want to discount that stay by more than 10/20% so the actual saving would be quite modest. Then there is the question of how you staff this. As far as I know the 48 working time directive is still in place? (just checked it is still in place) Site staff have to have reasonable working hours otherwise you will have problems of recruitment which is really in no one's interest. It's times like this we miss JK's contributions.
David
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I am looking at it from the point of view of trying to win the Club over PD, so the 6pm time is probably more outside the time when the majority of bookings arrive, and the teatime rush to get back to pitch happens😁
I know that sometimes, to secure an overnight stopover, you might need to be on pitch/space by as early as 2pm to secure a space. But 6pm, taking in how the Club operates now, and thinking purely in terms of overnight stopovers, it’s a reasonable period to park up and eat, sleep, ready for a morning off.
Price is going to be an issue, it always is. But given our personal experience, we can still find really nice stopovers, sometimes with shower and loo, or a hook up in the £15 region, so I give it as something to start with. At that price, it’s best not to get into the realms of being too choosy about likes/dislikes, but just go with whatever might suit. So if a Club Site has hardstandings empty, you go with it. If it’s an all grass Club Site, and you don’t like/ weather doesn’t suit, you don’t.
(As for power thieves, if your stop doesn’t include a hook up, but you do hook up, and the staff catch you, well, all Staff would do is take the Membership number, take a photograph of the perpetrating outfit, pass it onto HQ, and then block Membership so that a proper penalty is applied. No more bookings, no deposits refunded, thieves not welcome. Go in hard, and the message goes home. Put the numbers caught each month on the website, in the magazine, make it a shameful offence. No personal details of course, but demonstrate that a careful watch is applied.)
Winter months might be better with an earlier arrival time, but there are less folks out touring say November to end of February. Above all, the Site staff are key to any idea like this. They will know what is going on, how best to make something work from an operational point of view. There would be all sorts of variables to think about, but the underlying issues are to try and get income in rather than have pitches empty, and look at providing some sort of discounted offer that would help a lot of UK touring folks that are Wanting such a service.
It’s about maximising every Club pitch opportunity. If pitches aren’t filled, then the knock on effect is that Sites will close. It might be an area of a Site, as we see in Winter, it might be that more Sites go to a 6,7,8 month open periods or, as we have seen in the last few months, the Club completely shuts Sites down, forever. Ultimately, it’s making the most of what ever pitch resource is out there, filling it, and getting some income in.
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