Towing with an EV - trip report
Comments
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"Seems that TW & R2B are definitely “glass half full” people!"
I see no point in being anything other than optimistic. It’s the way forward whatever our personal views might be. To embrace progress or be a flat earther - it’s a no brainer for me👍🏻
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I was explaining my viewpoint to A&J, David, and I’ve no idea why you accuse me of adding nothing to the discussion when it is you who has frequently demonstrated your anti EV stance and unwillingness to move forward in several threads about EVs.
I quite get the fact that you’re anti EV but was there really any need to effectively insult those who already have EVs by comparing the cars to Betamax?
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Whilst I hope your view of how things will go is accurate there seems plenty of people who feel the need to raise concern that it might not.
No matter how much EVs are “the way forward” there will be many who, no matter how optimistic they are, can’t for a variety of reasons “embrace progress”.
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I can’t see why not, tbh. It seems to be down to mindset 🤷🏻♂️
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Why not is probably more likely to be down to a lack of finances, lack of “home parking” and a lack of a suitable ICE replacement rather than mindset.
Positivity about EVs is all well and good, and I am positive they will continue to advance, but I am unconvinced that there will not be unforeseen issues down the line, never mind those we know about now.
But,trying to be positive,I do hope I am wrong.
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What is insulting about using a term which refers to people who sincerely and honestly believe in a theory that happens to differ from the popular concept?
As for different standards, I’m happy to read your words.👍🏻
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I do hope you are wrong too, if you understand me.
We were talking really about optimism for the way ahead in EV world which differs from realities such as finance and physical obstacles which also prevent many people going out and buying a new car of a conventional type.
With regard to the future, I’m not convinced all will be well with any type of power or energy supply but none of us can know so, in the absence of a crystal ball, I choose optimism over doom and gloom. We know the issues caused by using fossil fuels so the alternative certainly seems a better bet to me and I look forward to it.
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I had forgotten I was dropping out of this thread! It's worth remembering the engineering know how that's gone into the design and production of electric vehicles and this is being developed further. The National Grid says it can cope with the power draw. We are learning to our cost sadly that we can't continue to use polluting fossil fuels or rely on them and we've got to make things better for future generations.
Very few owned ICE vehicles at first and very few found fuel available. We're past that point but still not reaching mass ownership and it's possible the type and design of vehicle might change further.
I find it dispiriting to read posts that continually point out the negatives. We know there are negatives but I can genuinely say as someone who drives an EV there are an awful lot of positives too.
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I agree 100% Brue, everyone is entitled to an opinion but to give that same multi repeated naysaying* opinion everytime new EV related info appears is wearing & just plain nasty.
*naysayer a person who opposes & criticises something continually.
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"I find it dispiriting to read posts that continually point out the negatives."
And I find it unrealistic, whatever ones view, to only put one side of the argument-positive or negative.
I say argument, but that's not really a good choice as I have absolutely no argument that replacing ICE cars with EVs is right in many ways.
Many years ago my employer proposed new working routines and told us how great things would be. When a colleague expressed doubt that their promises would be fulfilled he was told he had a cynical view.
His reply was no, he was not a cynic, but rather a realist with experience, and that experience told him that what we would end up with would not look like what we were being told.
As I say I am not 'against' EVs, take an interest in their development and have considered, and tested, a suitable , for me, EV but in reality there are, and will be, issues regarding EV ownership.
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Come 2030 there will be no choice but to buy an electric car, if you want to buy new. Unless there is a major change of course by the Government that will become a fact. I suspect that many that currently tow will renew their ICE cars before that date to give them some leeway to allow technology to catch up with the demands of towing. Many by then could well be giving up towing due to age and physical ability. So I just wonder if we are worrying a little bit too early.
Personally I would love to have an electric car but for the amount of miles I do I can't, currently, justify the price. As far as electric motorhomes are concerned I imagine I will have given up the hobby long before they become the mainstream.
This is not something that is being forced on people in the coming months, it is still 8 years away. By then, no doubt, EV's will have far greater range and supporting charging infrastructure will be in place.
David
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Personally I would love to have an electric car but for the amount of miles I do I can't, currently, justify the price. As far as electric motorhomes are concerned I imagine I will have given up the hobby long before they become the mainstream.
This is not something that is being forced on people in the coming months, it is still 8 years away. By then, no doubt, EV's will have far greater range and supporting charging infrastructure will be in place.
Very much the same as us. We have two 7 / 8 year old ICE cars that are low mileage and don’t cost us a lot to keep running. Most of our journeys are short and an EV would suffice but the financials just don’t stack up. Particularly as if we wait a few more years even the cheaper ones might have a decent range.
As far as the MH is concerned, we bought it with the intention it would be the first and last and made very sure it suited us, which it does. As EV’s are generally heavier I’m not sure how you could replicate ours and keep it within my soon to be licence restriction of 3.5 tonnes.
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I to would love a EV towcar, unfortunately I am disabled so unhitching to charge up is an issue, no doubt in the very near future this will change EV towing ranges will increase, at present we tow with an 2020 Outlander PHEV over the last 20 months 10790 miles our total fuel bill including electric £838.10
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My OH's car uses about £450 of fuel per year. That equates to a 10 year payback on a relatively modest E-car even assuming electric was free which it isn't. By then I'd be approaching my nineties. Would I still be driving? Unlikely and by keeping the ICE vehicle we save the environmental impact of a new electric one.
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There are many folk in that situation, CY, and nobody is trying to sell EVs to others so we can rest easy and see what the future holds.👍🏻
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Whilst I'm not against EVs in principle, there are several factors that stop me even slightly considering one at present:
1. Cost. Even small EVs cost more than a decent sized ICE car. The price may not be a consideration if the car is a company vehicle. ( I believe this is the case with Chocolate Trees' car but please correct me if I'm wrong). Would users of company owned EVs go out and purchase what they currently have if they didn't have the benefit of it being paid for by someone else?
2. Size. I need a decent sized car for what I do and certainly would need one for caravanning. See 1 above.
3. Range. Not a frequent problem as I tend to do either shortish journeys or the occasional quite long one. Not much in between. The longer journeys usually have a caravan in tow. I can tow to Cornwall without a fuel stop with my Euro 6 very clean burning Mondeo and still have some fuel left in the tank. I couldn't with an EV. What would that journey be like in the height of summer?
4. I'm not currently convinced about how 'green' and 'clean' an EV is claimed to be. What comes out of the exhaust of an ICE vehicle is only part of what causes atmospheric pollution. What about tyre particles and airborne brake dust? What settles on your front wheels is only a proportion of what is created. The rest is in the air. This applies to both ICE and EV vehicles.
All that said, in the future, when I have stopped caravanning or having the desire to travel long distances I may start to consider an EV. But not at the moment.
Just as an afterthought, weren't we all told a few years ago to go out and buy diesel cars? Now we are told not to. Will this be the case with EVs? Who can tell.
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Whilst I'm not against EVs in principle, there are several factors that stop me even slightly considering one at present:
1. Cost. Even small EVs cost more than a decent sized ICE car. The price may not be a consideration if the car is a company vehicle. ( I believe this is the case with Chocolate Trees' car but please correct me if I'm wrong). Would users of company owned EVs go out and purchase what they currently have if they didn't have the benefit of it being paid for by someone else?
My EV is indeed a company car, so I have a huge cost benefit. But I bought my PHEV in 2017 2nd hand ought right at a year old. That will go in the next 12 months, along with the Kia Picanto (once our youngest has learned to drive) and be replaced with a smaller EV. We will either buy that, or - more likely - lease or PHP one. The residuals on EVs are very strong, so lease / PHP costs are lower than those for ICE, for a higher initial price tag.
2. Size. I need a decent sized car for what I do and certainly would need one for caravanning. See 1 above.
Available - but agreed - tied to 1)
3. Range. Not a frequent problem as I tend to do either shortish journeys or the occasional quite long one. Not much in between. The longer journeys usually have a caravan in tow. I can tow to Cornwall without a fuel stop with my Euro 6 very clean burning Mondeo and still have some fuel left in the tank. I couldn't with an EV. What would that journey be like in the height of summer?
I won't labour the point on range - It's a personal choice, either you are happy to charge when you stop, or your are not. I am. Maybe you are not. Will it be possible in the height of summer - so far my experience tells me yes, but I will let you know if that changes.
4. I'm not currently convinced about how 'green' and 'clean' an EV is claimed to be. What comes out of the exhaust of an ICE vehicle is only part of what causes atmospheric pollution. What about tyre particles and airborne brake dust? What settles on your front wheels is only a proportion of what is created. The rest is in the air. This applies to both ICE and EV vehicles.
This is an old argument, and is - frankly - whataboutery. Yes EVs use tyres and generate particulates from them. The amount is similar to that for an ICE car - (tyres last about the same mileage). EVs use regeneration over friction brakes so the particulates from friction breaking are far far lower. And either way, those emissions pale into minute insignificance when compared to the ICE component (CO2 and NOx). Your "very clean Euro6 Mondeo" is clean by ICE standards. But compared to an EV its belching poisonous gas. Park it in a closed garage for a few hours with the engine ticking over to find out just how much. - I mean don't actually do that, I don't want anyone to die in the name of science. But dismissing ICE emissions as being almost as clean as an EV because of tyres and brake dust, is frankly nonsense.
That said - it is NOT a reason to go and scrap your perfectly good cleaner ICE today. Change it when you need to and not before. Maintain it properly to minimise its impact and think before you use it. That's exactly what we do with our ICE and PHEV.
All that said, in the future, when I have stopped caravanning or having the desire to travel long distances I may start to consider an EV. But not at the moment.
That's an eminently sensible position to take. The consideration of what comes next is most important part and all anyone can ask.
Just as an afterthought, weren't we all told a few years ago to go out and buy diesel cars? Now we are told not to.
Yes - the truth changed. Back then, the government took a (misinformed) stance on pure CO2 emissions, rather than combined particulate emissions. The move away from diesel back to petrol is for local health impacts (reduction in NOx, soot and particulates). The move towards EV is about global change (reduction in man made CO2), that also happens to benefit the local health.
Will this be the case with EVs? Who can tell.
Maybe - maybe not. But actually, I don't care either way. For now, an EV (for me) gives me a lower cost motoring experience, that is more convenient, definitively less polluting, more practical and more enjoyable than my previous ICE experience. So it's all good. That wont be the case for everyone, and each must make their own evaluation, and move when the time is right for them (if ever). What I do know is that diesel and petrol in passenger cars have had their day. They will be gradually phased out (diesel -> petrol -> EV) What comes next is anyones guess, but they will go.
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I thought this might be a useful addition to this thread. Andrew Ditton, travel writer and Vlogger has just gone electric and he intends to chart his initial progress over a series of four videos starting with this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQrQ_hUtfgs Ignore the first four minutes if you like!
David
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Thanks for that link DK. Looks like the poster has had a very similar experience to me range and towing capability wise. Will be great to see his future videos, if the EV6 performs better on the motorway, and how well it charges. I have to say the towbar on the Polestar is waaaaay nicer than the Kia setup! But I would like is 800V rapid charge and V2L.
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Firstly, many thanks to the OP for taking the time to post such a comprehensive note about his real world experiences. Everyone needs to make up their own minds on the suitability of an EV for them, because peoples situations and needs are inevitably different. Personally, I would like to have an EV, but given my circumstances, I cannot afford one that would meet my towing requirement of 1,800Kg
There is however, one element of the OP’s post that causes me concern and which has, as far as I can see, only been picked up by one other poster. Its the strategy of tailgating a lorry, to get the maximum amount of benefit of following in the slipstream of the lorry. To my mind, not leaving a large enough distance between you and the vehicle you are following to give you a realistic chance of braking before you go into the rear of that vehicle, is not something I would wish to do - especially when towing a large heavy white box.
Does anyone remember the white chevrons that were painted on a number of motorways to encourage drivers to allow a suitable space between them and the vehicle they were following? They were put there for a reason. My guess would be that if you followed a lorry with at least the recommended 2 chevrons visible at all times, there would be little or no slipstream benefit.
Thanks again to the OP for his informative post.
[EDIT. I have just checked. The chevrons were placed 40 metres apart, so the recommendation was that a car should be at least 80 metres behind the vehicle it is following.]
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@ Fastnet Does anyone remember the white chevrons that were painted on a number of motorways to encourage drivers to allow a suitable space between them and the vehicle they were following?
they are still around & about. I can't think of which specific motorways I've seen them on, but they are certainly still a thing. Trouble is, if you try to keep 2 chevrons behind the car in front, you'll always get some ****head that will pull into the gap.
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They were all over the place. Way up north on the M6 too.
"Andy"?🤭
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Hi Fastnet, Thansks for the positive comments!
I think my use of the term "tuck in" is perhaps giving a false impression of how closely you have to be following a lorry to get a benefit of the slipstream. Lorries make a huge disturbance in the air, and car/caravan combos have a poor drag co-efficient. The net net is you don't have to be very close behind a lorry to still get a very helpful tow effect (Anecdotally, F1 drivers report the benefit of a tow over 100m away, and their cars make a much smaller hole in the air, and are less impacted due to their aero design (all be it with much higher speeds). Being 80m or even 100m still gets you a useful benefit.
I more mentioned this because of the change in behaviour from when I tow with an ICE. In my old XC90, I would deliberately set cruise control at an indicated 60mph (actually about 58mph as the speedo read high). This was to ensure I didn't get stuck behind lorries and kept me moving past them a couple of mph faster. It have me the impression of making progress, even though in reality it saved maybe 10 mins on a long journey. I didn't care about the efficiency gain there as it only made a small difference in terms of how much I would pay at the pump to refill.
With the EV, range is clearly more important than the cost, and if you can get an extra 5% or 10% from your charge that can really help either in getting to the next charger, or in terms of recharge time.
I think many caravan towers already adopt the policy of staying with the trucks, so would already benefit from sitting the slip stream of large vehicle.
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...age comes to us all