Crowded out
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Ted, I have no knowledge of that campsite or how long it has been running, but it reminds me of historic situations in my own family.
Father and grandfather both had static caravans on farm land long before formal planning permission was required or enforced. No one bothered in those days! It sounds as though that was perhaps the situation at the farm in Wales, until the landowner was belatedly prodded into applying for retrospective permission many years late.
So now that landowner has permission for 28 caravans but is still listed by the Club as a CL with five.
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Similar here, ET. A relative in North Cornwall had what he described as perpetual permission for camping on his farm going back to pre WWll times. Grandfather's rights I guess.
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As a CL owner with a site that could easily accommodate 20 vans I am shocked that you are happy to openly break the rules on a regular basis.
You accepted the rules when applying for your CL certificate and you should adhere to them as the rest of us do.
I would also love the 5 van limit to be lifted but as it stands it is a maximum of 5. It would definitely be financially beneficial for the CL owner to have more than 5 vans but it is possible to run a successful & profitable CL under the current rules as well as we do with a lower pitch cost.
I wonder if you would be so happy to flout the rules should a planning officer make a visit?
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We stayed at Noyadd Farm last year. There appeared to be two sets of 5 pitches with a high hedge between them. It looked as if the intention was that the newer, more manicured pitches in the back field were intended to replace the older, more sloping ones in the front field. I seem to recall that on a couple of nights there might have been a total of 6 vans, though given that there were ample facilities and plenty of space it wasn't a major problem. I can't see how there can possibly have been 28 pitches though. We enjoyed out time on the site - great views and several walks direct from the site - and would certainly be happy to return.
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Noyadd Farm had well over 5 vans when we were on there about 4 yrs a go, what with a couple of vans that were obviously seasonal ones, a large tent as well as about 7 vans in the front field and more over the hedge in the back field with tents too. I did comment about it on here at the time and also in the review that I wrote. I did wonder how they got away with it.
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I reported somewhere we stayed at for overcrowding and an electrical fault. For about 2 years there were no reviews. Recently a review came up to say only 5 vans on site and EHU posts had been moved to both sides of the field. Did my report bear fruit, maybe I’d like to think so
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This sort of story getting into the National media is exactly why CL Owners shouldn't break the rules. It's bad publicity and also a shocking indictment on the CAMCs ability to regulate the CL system.
If you want the law to change to increase the number of units then ask the club to champion it or go private. Don't flout it.
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Oneputt I know you were not referring to the majority who follow the rules but it must be a level playing field for all CL owners who all know the rules which are not optional. I hope the CAMC review these posts and take action against those who knowingly abuse the exemption certificate to protect those who do follow the rules
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Hello, I didn't say I regularly flouted the rules. These are your words not mine.
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“…but having the 6th pitch enables us to invest more in the site and cover our increasing outgoings.”
Your words, not mine. The above certainly didn’t suggest it’s a rare occurrence.
I noticed you carefully avoided replying to my earlier post but I feel you act responsibly and your actions have greater implications than you seem to realise. Other CL owners must feel saddened by your blatant flouting of the regulations.
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Ted the Zed seems to another of those that think rules apply to others but don't apply to them. I would guess that when he signed up to become a CL owner he knew that there was a limit of 5 vans. If he had wanted to carry more vans on his site then he should have applied for a commercial licence from the beginning. However he would then have had to advertise his site at his expense and not had the free listing that the CC gives him in the site directory and web page.
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Thank you for all your responses.
To be quite clear we will abide by the 5 van rule. If there was a discussion about the possibility of raising that limit to 6 vans I would support it as it would give rural economies a boost and help CL owners to invest more in their sites, club members would also have a 20% increase in availability.
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I’m pleased to see you intend to abide by the rules in future, Ted.
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I have said for years that the current 5 van rule is out of date. Was it in the 1930s that Act was passed? How many caravans graced our roads then? How many grace our roads now? Add to that the drastic reduction of CLs generally and we have a problem don’t we? The large sites of the club continue to increase and to swallow large numbers of vans and Motorhomes and its a good job they do. If more people wanted CLs I feel that we could have a problem. One of the problems of course is that some CLs are in super locations and they will always be popular - hence- over crowding- not right but I can understand it. Off grid chaps- I have no such problems. I certainly go to sites that have had 5 vans on them but most of the time there is spare capacity and many times we have been by ourselves enjoying the entire site. The lure of the EHU could never get me to go back to crowded sites. For those that are interested , Facebook has a new and unique page- CAMOGG- Caravan And Motorhome Off Grid Group- take a look- and never have a site like the OP had to suffer!!
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Merve there's a good post regarding this by Ian at Birch Hill, see link below.
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We have been far from crowded out this past weekend.
A 2 acre CL all to ourselves, it was bliss.1 -
Heres the Link to CAMOGG Group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/CAMOGG/0 -
We have been on several CLs where the 5-van limit has been exceeded - in fact, we're on one now. We always book ahead, we were the fifth outfit when we arrived but another has arrived subsequently. I'll speak to the owner about it to ask if there are any extenuating circumstances, but I will report it formally if not.
This is because, like many contributors, we use CLs almost exclusively and we value the restricted numbers, but also because we find the behaviour of most CAMC members perfectly acceptable - something not guaranteed on 'commercial' sites, even small ones.
Phil & Claire
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It is now nearly two weeks since I received a response from CL Maddie saying that she would look into whether or not it was permitted for two CLs to be run, side by side but owned by different members of the same family/household.
A number of us have experienced such sites - so they do exist.
I just wondered how long it’s going to take to get an answer to what is really quite a simple question?
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It might be a simple question but getting an answer from Gov.Uk/Natural England is far from easy as I have found over the last few weeks.
As far as I can remember it is only possible if the land in question is held in different land holdings which would be a rare occurrence.
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Perhaps you missed Maddie’s interim response in the other thread, R&R.
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No, TW - I hadn’t missed it. But that was a week ago. All I was asking was what was the Club’s policy on this issue. I am coming round to the idea that perhaps there isn’t one!
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The 1960 act allows for the setting up of 5 van sites. Perhaps there may be a reluctance to delve into this too deeply. If CL owners allow more than 5 van's at a CL, and the practice becomes widespread and there were complaints, could this cause the government to repeal the act and no longer allow CL's. If representation was made to increase the limit of 5, might this have the same result. With this in mind, is it better to leave well alone and allow the CL network to continue to run 'below the radar'? Alternatively, might it be wise for CL owners who want to increase capacity to apply for (planning) permission from the Local Authority? With many Local Authorities looking for land on which to build houses, would the inevitable happen, in places were access is suitable.
David
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Hi Richardandros
Very sorry for the delay in replying,
A Certificate to operate a Certificated Location (CL) enables a land owner to have 5 pitches on their land. A land owner is not able to use multiple 5 pitch exemptions ie: they cannot have a CL with the Club and with another exempted organisation such as a Certificated Site (CS) with the Camping and Caravanning Club or have more than one CL with us.
You may see two CLs in close proximity on our network which are historical. In recent years, any new applications for CLs close to each other are measured against a set of criteria based on land ownership, separation and separate management of the sites. Each case is carefully reviewed on an individual basis but if there is member demand and our criteria can be met, then you may see CLs near each other.
If a CL owner wishes to have more than 5 pitches on their land, they must apply for planning permission and a site licence through their Local Authority. Any additional camping, caravanning, pods on the land must be completely separate from a CL site with a separate access and service facilities.
I hope this has answered your question.
Thanks
Maddie
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