The big winter shut down
Comments
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wow, straight out of the teachers handbook.....and now im 'easily offended'? how rude
look, its easy, dont try to moderate the forum and folk wont object to it
so, why/not use CLs.....?
ask the OP, he opened the thread.
...from my own perspective, main sites have a high proportion of HS which is what most members (MH and Caravanners) are looking for. in my own experience of CLs, far less have HS...with CC sites the infrastructure is all in place, water, waste, barrier etc, etc....
however, the panel have decided that this is something theyre not interested in due to frozen taps, traveller issues, failing barriers, staff costs, etc, etc....(things that have never affected the use of this type of operation AFAIK from my many discussions with other vanners).....it really isn't worth you getting upset about.....it aint gonna happen...which is why we discuss it.....
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"dont try to moderate the forum and folk wont object to it"
Hey, Moulesy, welcome to the club. Isn't it funny how some miss the irony in their own posts?
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BB said 'however, the panel have decided that this is something theyre not interested in'
I thought that I had outlined why I did not consider the use of a winter closed club site as an aire type arrangement as practical.
1. In order to be suited to Caravan and Motorhome it would need to appeal to both types of user. If there was a card operated barrier that required payment to and permitted the user, having paid for entry to come and go then any number of outfits could be brought in on that card. That is unless it was used purely as a night halt where having paid to enter then to go out and re-enter would require payment which would not suit most caravan users.
2.The sites that are closed are closed for a reason. They are either closed due to planning constraint or because they are not profitable as they are not in areas that folk wish to visit in any number at that time of year. A good many folk do not use sites in January and February (much beyond New Year).
3. On facility sites there are showers etc and also garage facilities, site equipment, reception buildings and so on. These need to be secured from this aire type arrangement as would most of the site. This aire needs the facilities such as refuse, waste, water etc within its compound therefore. All this requires considerable investment including design and planning applications as well as the construction costs.
4. Once the facilities were in place the site would need regular visits for security purposes as well as to service disposal points, deal with rubbish etc which would also need collection.
5. Given a possible low level of usage how many caravanners would wish their caravan to be (say) one of three unoccupied caravans left on site whilst they are out for the day? Seems an open invitation to theft.
6. With all the above factors I would not wish to sink many tens of thousands of pounds into such a provision in the expectation of making a reasonable return on my cash. If anybody thinks that it is worthwhile would they care to bankroll it? If there were an average of 6 units on it through the week and each paid £15 that would be £90 a day regardless of other running costs. It might well cost £60 a day in security and cleaning visits to say nothing of the capital tied up.
There are a number of other points I could raise.
Just to add that I am sorry BB thought that I was having a dig as it was not malicious. I did not think that you were making a serious proposal and were just 'funnin'.
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ET makes some good points, but surely none of them are insurmountable? If members want more sites at cheaper rates and open for longer periods then to my mind operation methods and what is on offer will have to change. Yes there are obstacles to overcome and there maybe short comings, risks and costs but is that not the case with any form of change. We have low facility sites, they don't suit everybody. We have sites with bars and swimming pools, they don't suit everybody. We have CLs, they don't suit everybody and if we had unmanned barrier controlled sites they won't suit everybody either.
peedee
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Alan, i am certainly not at all offended by you, i am happy to 'swap friendly digs' anytime...
what annoys is the usual few making decisions as to who should be 'digging' what with whom.....
nice to see our other regular 'moderator' making an appearance.
i thank you for your considered postings and the odd leg pull
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As you say PD none of the problems are insurmountable. Although one other I would add is the provision of EHU on a metered basis and the method of payment. As the sites are perhaps going to have limited appeal in winter without it. However, the CC is always being accused of not keeping up with the opposition in its marketing. Not cutting prices enough or throwing down offers in the off season.
Perhaps I missed it as I'm a caravanner. Are commercial sites opening Aires either close to, or as part of their sites? If it was economically viable in the U.K. I would have thought the commercials would have been copying the over there.
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Peedee, really good post...
like you, i certainly hadnt advocated tearing up the whole network, merely looking at some sites that closed in winter for economical reasons (labour costs too high for current customer return) and exploring how those costs might be reduced...
the obvious one is to remove staff where the services offered for winter (touring stopovers, perhaps) didnt require them.
car parks (and other automated entry facilities) work smoothly all over the country without staff in attendance, and if there are no other 'duties to perform' staff arent needed....
bins could be emptied on a rota basis (as councils do) and it cant be beyond the available expertise to come up with a tap that doesnt freeze....
i seriously cant remember the last time a tap froze here....or anywhere else for thst matter.....this isnt Scandanavia.
as PD says, a site as discussed might not be for everyone and was an attemt to see if 'turned off' CC sites could be made use of out of season, considering the oft posted theme we have here....
agreed, they wont suit everyone, but if 'part sites' or just reducing the overheads can increase turnover and provide the extra out of season services that are often discussed, perhaps its worth a look?
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However, i dont miss you
have a good day Tinny.
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i seriously cant remember the last time a tap froze here....or anywhere else for thst matter.....this isnt Scandanavia.
BB I find this very surprising, how many sites have you been on in winter? You must have been very lucky. We don't do much at all, but have had the taps, except in the heated block, frozen on several occasions. Rural sites, well away from towns, can be 5 C lower than the temps shown on the weather forecast.
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Steve, youre right, some form of metered EHU would be required, however, many on CT have been advocating for a long time to have the ability to pay for what they use (or dont use), especially in summer where non-ehu isnt an option on most sites.
by changing, say, 10 pitches to metered supply (or token/card operated) bollards, this could serve two purposes.....the desire to use measured EHU perhaps in winter, and the desire to not use EHU at anytime....
again, not advocating wholesale culture change across CC, merely introducing a more flexible customer driven change.
re your question about commercials 'doing this' and CC copying their model.....no, i dont know of any specific group using 'aires' in this way (although they are very common in France.....).
however, i would expect the no1 caravan (and motorhome) club to leading by example not following the pack....
seriously, with all the postings about the gloomy future of towcars and caravanning, shouldnt we be expecting our club to coming up with innovative ideas to put more bums in seats for a longer period each year, to maximise reinvestment to support any future 'enforced' change in demand?
yes, time and again, posters relate how theyve seen xxx work in France/Spain/Germany etc and the suggestion is immediately dismssed, not because of its shortcomings, per se, but merely as 'it was posted in the wrong section' and had annoyed someone.....
vanning is massive business throughout Europe and there are many, many different forms our hobby everywhere.
is there really anything wrong in having a look at how our neighbours do things and trying to pick the best bits....?
as i said earlier, i dont really care what th CC do or dont do, im happy to find my own camping wherever it suits me, but this is an interesting forum and, whilst im sure CC dont search for ideas here, the regular postings for more pitches open out of season with more basic facilities and less cost should, at least, grab their attention.
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steve, you live in Nottingham, i live in Somerset....different worlds
our winter touring (when in the UK) would normally be no further north than (say) Evesham/Tewkesbury and mainly on the south coast....
at home, we never get anything frozen these days, apart from peas
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Many on CT have been advocating for metered electric however I think that the majority would not be in favour of such a move. I personally see it as an unnecessary complexity.
I can't say that I am aware of 'the regular postings for more pitches open out of season with more basic facilities' BB. There seems many who post that they do not wish to use the facilities on their own caravan to the full. For me personally most of the time the availability of facilities blocks etc does not trouble me. I would say that the adding of facilities to some sites has increased their popularity. Strangely for me I would have preferred that they had not been improved.
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BB, I'm afraid you are wrong on that one, we've been to the Minehead site and others in the SW and have experienced frozen taps. An overnight temp drop and that's it, even with some insulated taps, even down in Cornwall. We froze at Carnon Downs one year. People have to get water from the facility block when this happens.
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...then the UK is doomed......
i said i havent experienced a frozen tap in many years, but thanks, Brue, thats Minehead off my list, lol
so, time to book the ferry and let the 'status' remain 'quo'd'
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I think it is a bit early to call on that one David. The government desires to eliminate Diesel and Petrol engined vehicles from production by 2040. The date is however not fixed nor are the full alternatives known The 2040 deadline is likely to slip I anticipate - don't most government desired deadlines?
2040 is only 23 years away and I believe will prove unrealistic without massive changes in available technology and to have such a cut off date would cause tremendous financial hardship for very many.
I appreciate that this is not the thread to discuss the topic.
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I am not quite sure what the demise of the tow car and the opening of Aires have in common. Surely if we can't have a viable tow car, we are unlikely to be provided with a viable MH. Most of the MH we have looked at return similar MPG to our tow car, so no real benifit in terms of pollution. Surely if you can design a cleaner engine to lug 3.5 tonnes of MH about, it will also work for a tow vehicle.
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Alan, it was my post I was referring to as not "having a go" - you know, the one which said everyone had a perfect right to express their view but asking, politely I thought, for more thought before ending posts with throw away sarcastic lines addressed to no-one in particular, just anyone who appeared to disagree with one's own view.
It never occurred to me for a moment that anyone would interpret that as an attempt at moderation!
I've stated my view that CLs/CSs could provide just what the OP was looking for so I won't need to contribute any further to this thread!
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i dont agree that giving customers choice is an unnecessary complexity.
businesses have been giving their customers choice ever since bartering began and a constant refining of ones offering is what keeps it ahead of the competition.
again, i wasnt suggesting we do away with the tradidtional bollard, merely giving the rising number of MHers (and those caravanners who wish to....) the opportunity to make more use of a 'stop over' type facility that requires less maintenance, staff and cost, and a more flexible offering.
I realise a 'serve yourself' type of site isnt what we currently have and certainly wont appeal to all.....for those, there are the regular offerings with their usual opening times, facilities and price structures.
if the club really hasnt got its head around how (a large proportion of) MHers use their vans and what they need, then the name change really has amounted to (very expensive) lip service.
if the alternative to finding something a bit more innovative for the 'changing demographic' is sites that cant evolve and remain closed as now, then so be it.
no skin off my nose, im off to France in less than three weeks for 'a while'.
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Winter touring is a mind set. We actually love it because it is a chance to get out and see this lovely country of ours wearing a different coat. Our first trip out in our MH was in temps down as low as -15c, hard frost, frozen site taps (all bar one) even snow at one point. But the lovely Christmas Market at Hexham, the drive back over the Moors, the colourful Christmas lights all over, the great atmosphere at Durham Grange.
All it needs is decent preparation, appropriate clothing and a sense of adventure. Bit like going abroad really.......
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"......more thought before ending posts with throw away sarcastic lines addressed to no-one in particular, just anyone who appeared to disagree with one's own view.
It never occurred to me for a moment that anyone would interpret that as an attempt at moderation!"
....yet, youre doing it again....(but in the 3rd person).....
perhaps you should give more thought to your posts?
ive already 'kissed and made up' with Alan, cant you leave it there?
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we also like to be out all year round, too, but one/you don't need to be particularly adventurous to do so, nor to take a ferry over the channel.....
the OP (and a few others) are just trying to explore what the club could do to support/encourage those who enjoy these times as much as we/you do rather than just arbitrarily closing sites to a calendar date.
i ralise this is sometimes not possible, but i dont believe this to be true in every case and a good bit of market research and/or testing of the water might bear fruit.....
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I can't see the point in the Club changing what it offers to be honest. It's overheads and costs to cater for less visitors in the Winter at more sites won't be cost effective, and a large percentage of today's visitors are too fickle and too, dare I say "soft" to be a reliable market. Just think of all the cancellations that happen with a drop of rain in the Summer! There are others out there, smaller operators providing some nice, homely, more attractive offerings, next to cosy pubs, close by interesting towns and villages, along nice Winter walks.
The Club keeps some great sites open in Winter, and at decent prices. Admittedly, some areas of the country are not included, but there are options instead. The resourceful will manage to find something.
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