A tale of Caveat Emptor
Hi All,
I am on the market to upgrade my current caravan and have narrowed my wish list down to something in the Swift group, twin axle, 6 berth with a fixed bed and side dinette. We have been looking around on the interne and recently found a Sterling Eccles Amethyst, 2011 with awning. A dealer who builds motorhomes from panel vans was selling it as he had taken it in part exchange.and just wanted back what it cost him in the part exchange deal. This was £11,000 which i knew was a really good deal assuming the caravan is in the immaculate one owner from new condition he advertised it as. I explained that it would be a few days before I could get there but if he gave be the VIN no I would get a CRIS report and assuming it is all okay I would pay a deposit to commit to buy. The CRIS report returned no issues, it looked really lovely in the pictures so I paid the £500 deposit via bank transfer that he requested (stop groaning at the back!).
A few days later (yesterday) my wife and I jumped in our trusty Vauxhall Vivaro to make the 100 and odd miles across the country to view the van which it turned out was not immaculate at all, but I suppose seemed in good condition. My Wife had been in the caravan for a few minutes before me while I was chatting with the seller and when I went in she has already found a few unfortunate dings and dents. Not to worry I thought, it is 5 years old after all and I could not expect it to be pristine. I immediately noticed the 'we've been to Cornwall' stickers had been peeled off the wood panel between the kitchen and bedroom, and commented on this with the seller, and that it was unfortunate that he had peeled off the brand new 700w sticker off the front of the microwave. The seller seemed bemused for a moment but then confirmed he had taken them off as it made the van look cleaner.
My wife pointed out a cupboard that would not click shut properly and a ripped curtain, as well as the curtain around the dinette bunk beds was missing. I went to check the window blinds and net screens worked and the first one I tried came apart. The string was snapped on the left side. The seller seemed surprised and said he hadnt noticed that and that it would be a cheap fix, again I thought I need to expect it has been used and a local repair place might be able to repair it.
I then asked where the carpets were, the seller said there were none. I pointed out that on the pictures there were carpets, he went off and came back confirming that there were indeed carpets down but the 'bloke' he had to valet the caravan could not get them clean as they were really filthy so he binned them. I briefly remembered the pictures showing what appeared to be immaculate carpets, still with the plastic on but the thought went when he started explaining that there were only £70 and he would gladly knock that off the price to which I refused and said I would pay the full balance in cash but he would send me braind new carpets and a full set of curtains. He agreed to this and agreed to put it in writing too. By now, the wife was in full examination mode and then found that the bed slats between the front to seats would not slide out. The seller had a but of a prod and tug and eventually got the bed slats in place saying that a little bit of trim under the drawers needed pinning back in to place. Another easy fix. I noticed that the drawers wobbled slightly but thought no more of it.
We went outside and I checked the seals for any signs of mastic or repair but interrupted myself to ask if the wheel locks were present. "They are present, but not presently here" said the seller, they were at the yard where they keep the van, he promised to post them to me. It never occured to me to ask why they never kept the locks with the van. I noticed there was a cover flap missing from the gas point and was beginning to feel slightly downbeat that my immaculate new van had a few signs of abuse, but thought of the sense of achievement I'd have once I had tended to all these little jobs and restored the van to its former glory. I gave it a final brief look over, confirmed that the seller would definately make good his promises and send the carpets, curtains and wheel locks. He shook my hand and we went off to his office to check all the paperwork and counted out £10,500 in twenties.
We went back out to the van and I remembered that i had not fully checked the trims and seals, that was when I noticed that the little trim sleeve around the awning rail screws was not there on the offside. This stopped me dead in my tracks. I checked the other side and it was missing from there too, I started to properly worry and needed to clear my head why they would not be there. I then checked all the windows for the CRIS marks being etched in all of the windows. All but the front side window and the window in the door were etched. now i was really worried and dropped the bombshell to the seller that i wanted to back out and get my money back. The seller and my wife were surprised and both asked why quite loudly. I replied that I think its been in an accident and repaired. Both were pretty astounded. I then went around the van with them and pointed out the seals missing, and the windows not being etched. I asked the seller to go and call the previous owners to come back with a very good reason for this. While he was away I suggested to my wife that this was not the caravan in the pictures on the internet (I came to this thought probably a lot later than you reading this did!!). He returned and said that the owners confirmed they have never had any windows replaced or repaired and it is entirely as new. I asked him directly if this was the caravan in the pictures. He seemed surprised and confirmed it was, I then pointed out the stickers, the carpets, the gas flap cover and strips were all present in the pictures even the awning bag on the floor was different. Again i asked him outright if it was the same van. He got slightly uppity as I suppose I was heavily implying he was lying. And in my mind here now, I'm convinced he was. Again he said it was the caravan.
I asked for 24 hours to think it over to which he agreed, I asked for all the cash back and the deposit back, he went and got the cash (I have since counted it - all there) but regarding the deposit, I am afraid he has already spent it, but does promise he will return it once the van is sold, he will transfer it back (hands all those who think this will end up in the small claims court).
Me and my wife jumped back in the van on the way home, within minutes he was on the phone offering another £500 off if we came back and collected it which did tempt me, but I believe he has lied regarding it being the van in the pictures, once he has lied I have absolute zero trust, and I can not purchase somethign costing 6 months of my salary to somebody I dont trust. So fingers crossed I get the deposit back.
In the mean time, if you know anyone selling something similar to this for a similar price please let me know.
Comments
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A sorry tale indeed Alvin.!! Caveat Emptor indeed !!
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+1 But I would keep an eye on that one, Alvin
! like the others I'd never use him at all after that experience, but I might just have a word with Trading Standards about him. I dont know if there is a time after which you cannot get them or the S C C involved, but they could give you advice & at least "Log in" the date of your inquiry as evidence .Good Hunting , ( 12 bore or Punt Gun would be handy for him
! )Brian
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Thanks all I dont have any credit cards. Maybe its worth having one for this reason. I am having a major dilemma as I can only get my cash back if and when the van sells. I feel I should blow the whistle on at least trade description, or at worst, my growing
suspicion that this trader has repaired a crashed caravan that was not registered on the CRIS database. This guy makes motorhomes remember.My worry is that by keeping quiet I am aiding him to get away with this, or somebody not as lucky as me might buy it qnd end up with a bad caravan.
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Salutary tale Alvin - I suspect you have seen the last of your deposit but good luck and thanks for posting. Reminds us all that there are sharks out there. Might be worth a visit to Citizens advice etc or a phone call to the Club legal dept for a bit of
advice.0 -
What a sorry tale, I hope you get your deposit back, but from the sound of it, it doesn't seem likely.
It's a shame that you didn't take any photos at the time you were there. You could then have compared them with the ones in the advert and had some evidence of the fact that they didn't "match".
But of course it's always easy to be clever afterwards; we've only in the last few years started taking photos of vans we were interested in when going to look at one, but only because we wanted to be able to look at them later for the purpose of deciding
what van to go for. But from this postnit looks like it may be a worthile thing to do anyway.0 -
I think the mistake was not paying by credit card as explained earlier although frankly I am not sure I would put a deposit down in that way at all. Frankly you will almost aways find a few marks on the side of ny caravan that has been towed over five years
but the rest was just not good enough. All I can say is I hope you do get the deposit back but it does look potentially dicy.0 -
If you don't have credit cards - I would seriously consider getting one - even if like me you don't use credit but pay it off immediately - there are many safeguards for things like your deposit - AND my daughter's partner discovered if you don't have a
credit card - it impacts on that all importand Credit Rating that seems to feature these days. He couldn't get a tenancy agreement without the credit score and he had never had a debt in his life. My credit rating is woeful really and I have never had a
debt - try getting credit as a single mother with no regular income!0 -
I have a couple of crdit cards and we have joint cards and OH has a coupke also. All set to pay of in full by direct debit. The Joint Asda one actually pays money back. Something like 1% or 2% in store purchase from memory. Gets me a return of over £120
a year,0 -
Was there not someone a while back who was getting a panel van conversion done and there were lots of problems with the workmanship etc.....could this be the same place?
A 5 year old van should not be in such a poor state unless it had very careless owners or a chequered history.
Our Sterling is 8 1/2 years old, has been towed over 32000 miles and only has one small mark on one side plus some scratches on the windows. Nothing broken or missing , carpets are pretty clean having been shampooed twice, everything works as it should.
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After speaking to the guy yesterday he did agree to refund the deposit. But this morning I have had a text message saying he has been overruled by the finance director. Deposits are not refundable.
Devastated.
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After speaking to the guy yesterday he did agree to refund the deposit. But this morning I have had a text message saying he has been overruled by the finance director. Deposits are not refundable.
Devastated.
What nonsense. Remind them that under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 the caravan was not fit for purpose and you are entitled to a full refund and this was agreed before you paid the £500 deposit.
If you paid the £500 by bank transfer that is when the Distance Selling regs kick in as they are also under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Also contact your nearest CAB or Trading Standards as soon as possible. This may be one of those companies that goes bankrupt only to open up again on the same premsies with a different name!
I doubt very much if they have a finance director if he could not afford to refund the £500 straight away due to having "spent" it. BTW as you bought from a business "Caveat Emptor" or buyer beware does not apply and you are covered by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 for a period of 6 years and within the first 30 days you are entitled to reject the goods and demand a full refund of all money paid.
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Thanks guys. All advice is noted, but this is not over as far as I'm concerned. I will be seeking advice from trading standards and CAB. And I expect I might get somewhere. I just don't need the hassle.
Right now the caravan is still on eBay. Once it's sold I have no way of proving my concerns over it. I have no way of proving I'm not the annoying tyre kicker, or that it is not fit for purpose. All I have are some photos of a caravan that didn't match the
van itself. I have informed CRIS my concerns about a repair but they can do nothing unless the info comes from an insurance company. All they can do is put a note on the account but I don't know what that actually means.I guess I'll be spending a few hours on the phone on Monday.
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Thanks guys. All advice is noted, but this is not over as far as I'm concerned. I will be seeking advice from trading standards and CAB. And I expect I might get somewhere. I just don't need the hassle.
Right now the caravan is still on eBay. Once it's sold I have no way of proving my concerns over it. I have no way of proving I'm not the annoying tyre kicker, or that it is not fit for purpose. All I have are some photos of a caravan that didn't match the
van itself. I have informed CRIS my concerns about a repair but they can do nothing unless the info comes from an insurance company. All they can do is put a note on the account but I don't know what that actually means.I guess I'll be spending a few hours on the phone on Monday.
Are you aware that under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 you do not have to give a reason for rejecting the caravan within the first 30 days? Therefore you are entitled to a full refund of your deposit.
I bet that the seller is not aware of the implications of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 as it apears that they were trying to sell you a caravan privately to avoid their responsibilities.
After all who would take a trade in caravan at £11000 and then sell it for £11000 knowing that it would cost them to do any repairs and if damp was found this could run into hundreds or thousands. It does not make sense for a business to do this.
Get a friend to look at the caravan and to take pictures of the faults you pointed out to the sales person.
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Get a friend to look at the caravan and to take pictures of the faults you
Good idea, however it is 120 miles away. I don't know anyone near by.
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If it is on the internet you can save the page to your computer. The details on the save page will confirm when It was saved.
If the dealer described the caravan as perfect and accepted and intends to keep your £500 I personally would contact the police as I see this as fraud.
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Thanks guys. All advice is noted, but this is not over as far as I'm concerned. I will be seeking advice from trading standards and CAB. And I expect I might get somewhere. I just don't need the hassle.
Right now the caravan is still on eBay. Once it's sold I have no way of proving my concerns over it. I have no way of proving I'm not the annoying tyre kicker, or that it is not fit for purpose. All I have are some photos of a caravan that didn't match the
van itself. I have informed CRIS my concerns about a repair but they can do nothing unless the info comes from an insurance company. All they can do is put a note on the account but I don't know what that actually means.I guess I'll be spending a few hours on the phone on Monday.
Was this episode through e-bay? Raise a dispute if so.
What is the item number? Is it requesting a deposit on winning bid or buy it now? A few people asking questions whilst it is for sale might be useful. Along the lines of:
Is the deposit refundable? Once replied affirmative ask a second question 'Why have you not refunded a previous prospective buyers deposit when this was found to be a dodgy caravan?
'Is this a caravan that is subject to a dispute as being discussed by caravan owners on a forum?'
etc etc
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I would be reporting this to e bay.
Having looked at the listing! it could be that the pictures have been taken from a couple of other listings as in one picture you can easily see the plastic on the carpets, while on the others it is not visible. Also the doormat is diifferent in one picture
compared to another, the sink has a cover on in one and not another, and there are 2 different awning bags shown.0 -
The microwave is different in 2 of the pictures as well.
Hope you get your hard earned back, best of luck.
Ian.
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please do not contact the seller in respect to this. It is pointless as the questions do not automatically appear in the questions list - only if he allows the questions to appear on the listing.
He has now added more pictures which clearly show a different microwave and now proving it is indeed a different caravan.
I have got him on item description. Please everyone, if you have found the listing, please do not make reference to this thread.
Feel free to ask whatever questions you wish, but please do not make reference to this.
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I would be reporting this to e bay.
Having looked at the listing! it could be that the pictures have been taken from a couple of other listings as in one picture you can easily see the plastic on the carpets, while on the others it is not visible. Also the doormat is diifferent in one picture
compared to another, the sink has a cover on in one and not another, and there are 2 different awning bags shown.Write your comments here...
The microwave is different in 2 of the pictures as well.
Hope you get your hard earned back, best of luck.
Ian.
Well spotted! Yes, 2 totally different microwaves.
Seems to be quite common on e bay to find some sellers using someone else's pictures.
Not very intelligent!
Good luck alvin.
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please do not contact the seller in respect to this. It is pointless as the questions do not automatically appear in the questions list - only if he allows the questions to appear on the listing.
He has now added more pictures which clearly show a different microwave and now proving it is indeed a different caravan.
I have got him on item description. Please everyone, if you have found the listing, please do not make reference to this thread.
Feel free to ask whatever questions you wish, but please do not make reference to this.
Without your confirmation it could be any similar caravan we have found on ebay
Direct action and confronting conmen in the ether often brings about resolution
Good luck and hope you get the deposit back and find a caravan you deserve.
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I would be reporting this to e bay.
Having looked at the listing! it could be that the pictures have been taken from a couple of other listings as in one picture you can easily see the plastic on the carpets, while on the others it is not visible. Also the doormat is diifferent in one picture
compared to another, the sink has a cover on in one and not another, and there are 2 different awning bags shown.Unless you made the payment via ebay (which doesn't seem to be the case here) they will not be interested.
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I would be reporting this to e bay.
Having looked at the listing! it could be that the pictures have been taken from a couple of other listings as in one picture you can easily see the plastic on the carpets, while on the others it is not visible. Also the doormat is diifferent in one picture
compared to another, the sink has a cover on in one and not another, and there are 2 different awning bags shown.Unless you made the payment via ebay (which doesn't seem to be the case here) they will not be interested.
In the ad cash or transfer only - no Paypal, so absolutely no hope of any action via Ebay.
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