Pay per mile car tax discussions
Comments
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You still have me totally confused. You have a meter that records how much electricity the house uses overall. You can in theory add a meter to any of the circuits in the house, so why can you not have a meter that reads the supply to the charging point?
Colin
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Don't forget the information in the article came from a "Pressure Group" rather than an official source. Mind you isn't about time we finished the complete change over to the metric system
David
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Any socket can be used for charging, not just the dedicated charger. Yes you can add meters willy nilly but the electricity used will still flow through the main incoming meter before being metered again at whatever outlet(s) you fit meters to. There will be no separate recording mechanism for EV charging alone.
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Because you can plug a car into any socket. If you didn’t want to pay the duty, you would simply charge on an un monitored supply. Any solution that is implemented needs to be secure, robust and fair. Monitoring home chargers will be none of this things.
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That would be a bit unfair on all those who only do a fairly modest mileage every years but would benefit those that do high mileage which is probably against what they are trying to achieve. The only system that would work reasonable fairly would be for it to be based on distance travelled?
David
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I suppose it just shows to go how far the electric charging system has to go.
Colin
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Colin
I am sure what you suggest is technically possible but who would pay for such meters? There are between 25 and 30 million residences in the UK. Obviously not all of them capable of having a charging point. I suppose you could incorporate a meter within the charging unit. But as TW points out you can use a "Granny Lead" with a standard UK plug top which could be plugged into any socket in the house so how would you manage that? Also most people with charging points charge their vehicle over night at very competitive rates and if that change, certainly in the near future I suspect sales of EV's would plummet?
David
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I disagree, it shows how incredibly flexible the electric charging system is when compared to the relatively antiquated wet fuel model.
The challenge here is finding a modern solution for a modern problem. I am 99% sure that adding duty to electric consumed as a proxy for miles driven is a poor option. It only works for petrol and diesel because they are a controlled market (controlled by the oil companies).
Perhaps this really is the point at which tax models need to diverge. Any new car (manufactured after around 2023) will have a mandated tracker to enable SOS messaging in the event of an accident, and to implement speed limiting.
Those systems are secured to prevent tampering by the car owners or third parties. They could potentially form the basis for a GPS based mileage recording system, and their accuracy could allow geo fencing for miles driven abroad, and even dynamic road pricing based on specific roads and time of day.0 -
That sounds very complicated. Surely the simpler a solution the easier and cheaper it is to install.
We are at the dawn of a motoring revolution. Why not take the opportunity to standardise a charging coupling/plug that can only be used with a matching box/point with integral meter.
Colin
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I don’t think it’s realistic to expect every EV manufacturer to fit a particular type of charging connector to their cars just to accommodate a UK taxation scheme. As it is, there is a variety of connectors plus the emergency granny charger system. The Govt would have its work cut out in attempting to make the manufacturers comply and the result could be that manufacturers decide it’s not worth supplying the UK market. Lose/lose.
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All this talk about EV charging is a bit academic isn’t it, if what’s been suggested in the link I posted comes to pass? The proposal seems to be to do away with VED and introduce cost per mile. Nothing about putting up the price of ‘fuel’. Maybe someone could point me/us in the direction of any proposals to increase the cost of ‘fuel’?
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I'm a dreamer. Occasionally my dreams become reality, but I do not see it happening here.
Colin
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School kids today (maybe for 30 or more years) are fully up to speed on the metric system and science, engineering, construction, medical all use metric of course. They can convert quite easily if roughly.
As you say here are a few 'left overs' such as we still use feet and inches, weights, mph, mpg - even though fuel is bought in litres, and of course pints, and how would those school kids brag about the size of their TVs at home? Mpg is just used as a reference to which cars have better economy in my view.
Cars have Km/h on the scale already, unless very old, and on mine I can switch the digital display to it. But to change all the road signs across the country would be a huge and very expensive task? I'm not against it at all but it would take a long time?
I've often teased about our dual use when in Italy but I then ask them someone what their tyre size is on their car, that usually deflates them (pun very much intended).
And to borrow a joke form the Edinburgh Fringe festival:
My dad used to say to me “Pints, gallons, litres” – which, I think, speaks volumes
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It must be more like 50-55 years since things started switching to metric. I came here to work in 1970 and engineering firms were already starting the switch over. Our son is 54 and he worked only in metric when he started school.
As David said, it really is time everything was completely changed over in UK.
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As I posted I'm not against it but if you consider how many road signs with distance and speed limits signs there are over the UK, and the time it would take to replace all of them, even with a sticky overlay (which peel off) and the cost and due to the cost alone I would say it's virtually impossible at the moment.
As you say when you son stated it was all metric but that caused problems so school kids today are taught at least what units there are in the imperial system and they should know the basic conversions. They often appear in questions on the no calculator paper about converting between them.
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TW, I appreciate my idea would not work. I think because you would have to retro-fit a system that has already started, and not because "manufacturers decide it’s not worth supplying the UK market"
Modern production lines around the world can cope with different vehicles going down at the same time, let alone models, power plants, transmissions, bespoke customer orders , and, the big one, UK specification vehicles in right hand drive with different lighting requirements etc. They already have a system set up to cope with the demands of the UK market, they want to make money, so they would supply the vehicles we need.
Colin
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…..you hope.
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The plug is already standardised between the car and charger. In Europe it's Type 2 for AC and Type 2 CCS for DC. The remote end of the type 2 can be a dedicated unit, or a bump in the wire charger with one of a number of different plugs (3 Pin, European, 16A IEC309, 32A IEC309, 3 phase, etc). The idea is not to reduce the availability of charging (to just those chargers with government approved metering) but widen it to any available source. Fixed point metering and wide scope of charging sources are diametrically opposed requirements.
We are no longer at the dawn of the EV revolution. With 18% BEV registrations a year and growing, and an infrastructure that has been rolling out in earnest for 5 years, adding government approved metering to every private charger is a non-starter.
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I would not want the electric power suppliers to be turned into car fuel tax collectors, you could bet your bottom dollar that the costs incurred to implement systems to collect and process this tax on behalf of the government would be added to our bills and paid for by all of us, the consumer.
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I agree, and indeed, I don't think they could ever be. Electricity DNOs and retailers responsibility stops at the meter. Anything beyond the meter is in the ownership and responsibility of the customer. There is not, and can never be, a single point of metering for electricity for charging EVs in the home. It just makes no sense.
Road pricing or pay mer mile is (IMHO) the right way forward, with appropriate governance included in the car its self.
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One would hope that before road pricing becomes a reality that the Government would hold a consultation? It would be such a big change from what we have been used to, I am not sure that it could be introduced without any discussion. It is also important that we know all the facts so a certain sectors of the "media" don't try and distort those facts. Interestingly contributors to this discussion have been open minded about the idea which is good, just have to wait and see how the general public react?
David
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At the moment, we can only speculate, there doesn’t seem to be anything concrete. I do think that sooner or later something will be done to address the issue of EV’s that are presently exempt from VED, something has to give. Who knows, we might see VED applied to EV’s, which would presumably preserve the status quo* As you say David, I would think there would be a consultation period, and as we know, government likes to drag its heels, so I’m not expecting anything soon. For my part, I would be in favour of a ‘pay as you go’ system, even though it seems it would cost me more, it just seems fairer to me. The link I posted suggested that certain groups would/could be protected (yes, I know it’s speculative), that would be good.
The general public? Yes, I’m sure there will be a certain level of uproar, if ‘pay per mile’ was proposed, I can almost hear them now, “it’s always the motorist that gets clobbered”, or, “they just want to control us, take away our independence “. The conspiracy theorists will probably have a field day.
*Maybe @Chocolate Trees would like to comment?
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Freddy, you’re behind the times.
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As TW says, the rules are changing in 2025, but there are lots of complaints that they are far from fair.
The issue is the new tax regime (a flat charge for all after year 1, with a CO2 weighted 1st year payment, and the add on "luxury vehicle tax" for RRP over £40K) is being back ported to _all_ cars (really means all ZEV cars) registered after April 2017. This leaves the slightly odd situation where a small petrol or diesel car (up to 100g CO2/km) registered on March 1st 2017, will pay just £20 a year (up from £0), but an equally small EV registered on April 1st will pay £190 a year. Indeed, my previous PHEV (Reg 66 plate) with 49g CO2 gets this same low tax treatment, with a 2.5L diesel on board, which _can_ be run in pure diesel model.
Given the policy was announced in 2020 or 2021 (I think 21), there are 4 years of buyers who feel like they have a raw deal.
I dont think anyone is suggesting that EV should have a free pass on VED for ever, but more that the rules need to be transparent to drive behaviour up front. You need to know the playing field isn't changing mid game.
Personally, I am happy to pay VED (all our cars will attract the standard rate), and if buying a new car in future, the luxury tax may make me think twice about the RRP. But more important for me is my wife's Fiat 500e, covering just 2000 miles a year will have the same price as a 2024 registered EQS ( a £100,000+ ) car that covers 30,000 or 50,000 miles a year.
That disparity needs addressing....
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How the changes will affect your vehicle
Electric and low emission cars registered on or after 1 April 2025
You will need to pay the lowest first year rate of vehicle tax (which applies to vehicles with CO2 emissions 1 to 50g/km). From the second tax payment onwards, these vehicles will pay the standard rate. This is £190 for 2024 but is subject to change for 2025.Electric and low emission cars registered between 1 April 2017 and 31 March 2025
You will pay the standard rate. This is £190 for 2024 but is subject to change for 2025.Electric and low emission cars registered between 1 March 2001 and 31 March 2017
These vehicles will move to the first band that has a VED value. This is £20 for 2024 but is subject to change for 2025.Additional rate (expensive car supplement)
For new electric vehicles with a list price exceeding £40,000, you will now need to pay the expensive car supplement from the second tax payment onwards. This applies to vehicles registered on or after 1 April 20250 -
So the last two posts beg the question, is road pricing going to replace VED or will it just make up for the short fall from lack of fuel duty as vehicles move to electric power? I can't somehow see a situation whereby vehicles don't have some sort of VED even if it was reduced if/when road pricing arrives? The powers that be could well decide that road pricing would just cover the lack of revenue from fuel duty. Clearly the vehicles that currently attracting the higher rates of VED will gradually disappear as they age and are scrapped. So much we don't know?
David
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