Campsites closing at the end of the 2024 season
Comments
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This is really bad news. We use nunnykirk a lot. If these sites are only 1% of the network, then the cost of keeping them open is also small. We never use the main full facilities sites because of the very high site fees. If this goes ahead, then it will be CLs all the time for us. Very disappointed
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Richard, A couple of your points stick out but I feel the major one will be the cost of a Non-Facility site. At one time these NFs were priced at a standard one price and all of the ones that i stayed at, out of high season, were very well attended.
Not sure about the occupancy comparison. I recently stayed at Chester Fairoaks site, admittedly mid-week and just for the 1 night but it was only 1/3rd full, in July. It's next to a large Outlet village with easy access to Chester and Liverpool and the motorway network. In my view it was overpriced but handy for what we wanted it for and there is a lack of alternatives in the area.
I think the regulars are a bit hasty in saying "never" due to the wardens. If they really value the site then they should write to the club and complain about them. The trouble with the British is they complain about matters to the wrong people. Their inaction will help the demise of that site. I daresay it's already in the crosshairs of the bean counters.
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Again - if these sites represent only 1% of the site costs surely there must be ways of making a cost saving in the club to keep these sites open for the benefit of the MEMBERS .
I can suggest two ' Why does the CAMC magazine now need two editors ?
and why every time that I watch YouTube do I get an advert for the CAMA ?
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If I read what Rowena said in her original post was that the sites which are closing only represent 1% of the total pitches available across the network. Whether you think the Club should keep them open because they are just such a small amount seems to disregard the fact that they could be making a loss. OK losses will ebb and flow depending of the general circumstances but I assume the Club is not making the decision just on what is happening this year? If sites consistently make losses that is a drain on the Club's ability to upgrade other sites which are more likely to repay the investment? Some suggest the Club is charging to much for these sites but if sites fees were reduced they have to attract a lot more people just to stand still.
As regards site staff it always puzzles me when people seem to have a negative experience. In the 40 odd years I was a touring member 95% of my contact with site staff was when I checked in and I don't recount any issues at that stage. I didn't arrive early, I always pitched correctly, I didn't speed on site and I don't have a dog so the possibility of further contact was much reduced. So what are these difficulties people are experiencing?
David
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David - Whilst I wasn't going to go into detail on here - since you have asked the question, I will. Our experience, it would appear, was shared by other people we have spoken to (without any prompting from us).
It's really all about being customer focussed and about making members feel valued - simple as that and the way in which that can be achieved or not - is sometimes, quite subtle. Last year, when we arrived - went into Reception and introduced ourselves to Kevin and Karen (the Wardens that had been here for years) - "Oh yes, we remember you - you've got the Knaus, haven't you?" "How are you?" etc etc. It was quite clever of them to remember us, given how many members pass through - but it made us feel special and valued. No big deal, I suppose - but those two were truly acting as ambassadors for the Club.
Move on a year - pulled up in the arrivals area. Before I could get out of the car to go to Reception, Mrs Warden literally 'marches' towards us, clipboard in hand - gestures for me to close the car door and sit there whilst a conversation took place through the open window. It went something like this:
I introduce ourselves - she makes no attempt to do the same.
She then starts to read from the clipboard. Have you been here before? We've had to close the grass pitches because we have had serious flooding problems.
Yes - we know - you rang us.
Please don't go on the grass under any circumstances, if you have a motor mover, use that so that the car doesn't churn the grass up.
I smiled, and pointing to the All Terrain tyres on the car and jokingly said, "I don't think there's any danger of that". No reaction.
Anyway, we don't want anyone going on the grass and there have been some changes since you were last here. We now have centralised bins and then explained that.
After about five minutes of what can only be described as a well-practised lecture, we went on our way to find a pitch. Within a few yards of the arrival bay, there is a quite narrow bit of roadway, where, from past experience, I know that units necessarily have to go on the grass to get round the bend and it does get churned up. What have these wardens done? Put two large wooden planters either side of the roadway making it extremely tricky to get a wide unit such as ours through without damaging it.
A customer-focussed alternative would have been to cut the grass back away from the road and fill in the gap with the gravel chippings that are used for all the roadways off the main one.
In terms of 'atmosphere', I get the impression that the site itself is more important to these Wardens than the customers / ?guests themselves. Bit like hospitals being wonderful places if it wasn't for the patients!
I could go on with other examples we have heard from others but I have rambled on long enough - but you did ask the question. I agree that there is nothing I have recounted that justifies a complaint and I won't be doing so - but first impressions count and you only get one chance to make a first impression!
Richard
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I’ve been visiting C&MC sites for more than 50 years so let’s not kid ourselves and just remember that sites have been closing and new ones opening throughout the club’s existence. Let’s not also forget that the world, technologies, societies and our requirements to live within it have also changed during that period. I remember my grandfather telling me that in his lifetime he witnessed the first car entering his village and the first man on the moon, change happens. Anyway, back to the OP. I have noticed people’s general happiness in life, their work satisfaction and that overall feeling of social togetherness much reduced these days, well that’s my observation. The lightening fast way both one’s positive and their negative or dissatisfaction experiences can now be brought to our immediate attention can have a profound influence on us. The problem I think is that our happiness, our sense of being valued and our respect for others is in direct correlation with this rapid change. It’s not going away, today becomes tomorrow and with it our lives will change and move on, it’s just that this change is so very, very rapid these days. The pace is turning us into somewhat detached robots chasing our tails with the next task, next directive, next challenge to be met. Sometimes I feel that just keeping up with progress can have a detrimental effect on us all and that goes for both C&MC members and staff. Finally back in the 70s I remember my boss telling me how this new fangled computer would reduce workload and improve our leisure lives. How wrong he was and he totally left that introduction of the new technologies to us youngsters. May be a more retro approach to life and experience in general, particularly on sites, could be a real selling point.
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Retro stuff can be great fun, and is hugely popular. Steam trains, classic cars, old fashioned outdoor lido’s, re-enactments of all kinds, 40’s wartime special events, 50’s/60’s music events, history events at NT/EH/Cadw properties. Living Museums…..lots to get involved in, try out if it’s of interest.
Children in particular seem to love something that they haven’t experienced before, where you have to do everyday tasks a little bit different than they might do at home. We do live in a fast paced, little physical effort environment nowadays compared with even 20 years ago, and sometimes it’s nice just to lay back under the sunshine or stars, listen to nature all around you, turn off technology, and connect/re connect with sights, sounds, smells, tastes all around for a short while. Stress relief for adults as well😁
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Richard
Thanks for explaining a little more about the site staff situation. Perhaps the difference as I see it is that we only went to those sites where the area around was more important than the site itself. I tend to take as read that a CMC site will meet our needs and whilst some are better than others I have never been totally let down by any I have visited. I am sure we have all witnessed staff reactions from super friendly to Sargeant Major directness? Perhaps the latter a hangover from Covid? Although in truth the vast majority have been the former. It does seem sometimes as if reception staff are working from a script but if you are the 20th arrival that day I suspect its an easy position to get into. Even those sites we visited on a regular basis there is usually a few years between visits so the prospect of me remembering site staff was pretty remote.
David
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Funnily enough, we stayed at NYM middle of April this year, and really enjoyed it, but other than a brief hello with staff, had little interaction. We hadn’t been for over 20 years. The one thing that was obvious was that it had been very wet, and they didn’t want anyone or anything even on the edges of pitches, as anything other than a tractor would have been well and truly stuck. There were caravans on the grass seasonal pitches that were unreachable, even with a 4x4. I do seem to recall that in the past, site staff might have helped rescue anyone stuck, but don’t nowadays for whatever reasons, so maybe, prevention is better than cure, and let’s face it, some visitors do get themselves into literally, very sticky situations. That said, one of the irritating things you do occasionally get is to be asked have you been before, and even if you do say yes, the run down of do’s and donts has to be gone through! I usually end up with a bit of a glazed expression, and try to give the right response if asked anything specific🤭
Its a lovely site is NYM. Staff wouldn’t put us off going (nor other places), as our only interaction tends to be hello on arrival, and possibly thank you if anyone around as we leave.
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What has become abundantly clear to me recently regarding attitudes to life and wellbeing are those generational divisions in our society. I’m not trying to make a political statement here but the last six weeks has really proven the point. All those involved have collected, analysed and made use of statistical data regarding the differences between the younger and older demographic groups. The findings I find both fascinating and by and large positive and hopeful. Particularly with regard to the worlds of nature, climate change and environmental issues, all of which are so important to many of our enjoyments of the great outdoors and ‘caravanning’.
So it may be true, and I suspect it is, that the younger and older members of our club have different opinions regarding what constitutes the club and the changes we witness being made.
I also suspect that the vast majority of contributors on CT tend to be in the older groups, not all mind. I further believe, and the recent evidence suggests this, that the older we are the more right of centre ‘we’ become, again, not all of us. Maybe common sense can be found more commonly amongst the young these days?I do so hope more youngsters can somehow be attracted to the club like my daughter and her young family but it could offer so much more. Thankfully we very rarely see requests for more adult only C&MC site these days, there have never been any run by the club and hopefully none will come to be.
I’m reminded of that saying, “one life, live it” but let’s not forget we need to do this with togetherness in mind. I’m hoping for a bright future for the C&MC and that will mean changes. The important thing ‘now’ is for whom those changes are being made.
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Richard, I have to agree about the site staff affecting the atmosphere, we have been regular uses of the now closing Bromyard site, over the years the site had some excellent warden's, on our last visit, new warden's very efficient but unlike previous visits were told where and exactly how we had to pitch, we were even followed to our pitch and were watched to make sure this happened. It didn't exactly make you feel welcomed, our neighbours onside said they were given the same treatment.
Whilst I doubt that this has anything to do with the site closing, perhaps some regular users were a little put off, I know we were, first impressions do count.
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I think I’ve read more posts and reviews complaining about wardens, or at least commenting on their attitude, in the last year or two than ever before. Some of the reviews don't survive in order to protect the identity of the wardens who can’t respond but the increase is quite marked. Have things changed or are members now commenting more when, in the past, they would have ignored the occasional grumpiness?
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There have been so many changes regarding pitching, types of pitches and associated rules in the most recent of years, some coming mid season. All I’m sure have been issued with a directive from HQ for staff to enlighten the membership of these changes and ‘educate’ us all as to the rationale behind them. How do staff members know if we are up to date with the latest developments or do this when we tip up without them asking or broaching the issues with us. Sometimes I think some are really quick and keen to shoot the messenger who, again I’m sure, is only doing their job as instructed to do so. Sadly some of us appear less tolerant towards the efforts staff are clearly trying to deliver and are possibly reading too much into that first impression.
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Have things changed or are members now commenting more when, in the past, they would have ignored the occasional grumpiness?
I can’t say we have noticed any significant difference. Although interaction these days tends to be minimal. If you arrive around 1 / 2, as we tend to, you often don’t have to get out of the cab. Warden with a clip board ticks you off, gives you a map if required, tells you what pitch type you’ve booked and how to pitch. Then sends you on your way with instructions to report back with pitch number. I must say we quite like it, speeds up entry no end. OK you do get the odd one who goes on a bit, despite being told you have visited recently and know the drill. However, I don’t mind that, they are just being thorough and when you see the ridiculous way some folk pitch, even after this instruction, who can blame them.
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I can see it now, hear it now. (assuming you have of course turned up at the right time, that’s taken a lot of effort to get across hasn’t it)
However….
‘Good afternoon’
‘Have you been here before, are you aware of……’This friendly introduction then immediately being met by that slight but perceptible roll of the eyes or the slightest groan, or maybe you give a more terse or possibly sarcastic retort.
I guess first impressions work both ways. Unforgivable in my opinion to suggest we are paying for that friendly intercourse without being positively and actively engaged in it!
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I suspect that there are a good number of new staff since COVID, every Club Site we have been on has something saying we are recruiting, be it for Assistant SM, or volunteers. I would also add (and don’t forget, we aren’t regular Club Site users) that some on-site behaviour by Members has changed a bit as well. We were shocked at the speeds around sites like Clumber Park, Burrs CP earlier this year, and if there’s a short cut to somewhere, it will be used, including driving down one way systems. Not sure if it’s selfish behaviour, or simply lack of empathy for other users, but it is happening. I certainly wouldn’t cycle round either of those two sites between 1-2 pm🫣 We have noticed staff at Clumber out and about significantly round the site on our last three visits there, which is good, it’s a deterrent for some of the stuff that goes on.
The last time we encountered an over zealous staff member was back mid 1990’s. We arrived at Yellowcraig, just after 8pm, in thick fog after something like a six hour tow, and were pounced upon by as Assistant Warden. Arms out wide, you can come no further, here’s the LNA area, you need to park up to pegs, make sure you give us your card, you must be in reception at 9am, blah, blah. We just let it wash over us, unhooked (no motor mover), and started pushing van into LNA. Mr Zealous insisted on helping and getting in the way. We were exhausted and just wanted to get our heads down. Thankfully, Warden came out and gently led him away, and left us to it. Too much help can be as distracting as not enough sometimes😁
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I'm not sure the club properly reflects the difference in needs between caravanners and motorhomers. I am willing to be contradicted but generally caravanners stay longer and like full facilities because of the effort of refilling the water tank. Motorhomers tend to tour, make shorter stays and are less bothered about full facilities.
As a motorhomer, I tend to stay for one or two nights. Because I don't use the facilities beyond grey and black waste, bins and fresh water, I will generally only go to sites that are in spectacularly attractive locations or once every five days to top up the batteries on hook up.
I do think the club needs to think about the needs of motorhomers and consider whether they could better accommodate them. There are an increasing number of aires being opened. We recently stayed at two on the Moray coast with all the facilities we needed for £15-£17 a night in spectacular seaside locations. Both had ANPR and were bookable online. Hard standing numbered pitches. There was no hook up but those of us who have upgraded to lithium dont need them generally. I do think moving to charging separately for electricity is a good idea.
The Camping Car Park network of aires in France is a really exciting example of what could be done here: an app which tells you availability on the day, the possibility of pre booking to reserve a place: unstaffed with entrance through barrier by card with the ability to top up for payment.
These approaches are designed to support touring with the expectation and sometimes the requirement for stays of no more than 48hours.
I would be interested to know whether the club have properly researched the needs of motorhomers or whether they just feel the legacy caravanning offer is the market that they are in.
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I think the Club has its own approach to touring, and if your needs, wants and disposable income can correspond, then it caters for all types and ages. Hence you can start off with a tent and stay, change to a caravan/MH and stay, and if towing, driving about gets all too much, then you can now stay in pods of different kinds. It is a definite UK based type of stay, with a range of locations, and isn’t at the more adventurous, budget end of the spectrum, but is beloved by those who do like this guarantee of what you are going to get no matter what you are touring in, or which part of the UK you want to visit.
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Tim Sands
We really need to be careful of what we wish for. Over the years of CT there have been several topics discussed and the club have sort of eventually responded with ‘you asked for…so we have….’. Not all changes have been either successful or met with the majority of approval.
It has always worried me that the club should introduce minimum nights stay at a site rather than as many as you need or just that one night. After all the club is a network of sites not just one and we may just be staying several consecutive nights just not on the same site. This is more important to us motorhomers I think.As far as aires are concerned it does seem to work on the continent but here it may be different. I’ve witnessed undesirable folk gaining access to sites here and I need convincing, as I’m sure all thinking about opening an aire type stop off would need to be too, that it is possible without those concerns. Particularly true if they are unmanned and under the remit of the local community who will inevitably hold mixed views on such. I’ve just to look around my local coastal towns and the populations views on tourism is very mixed.
We now see many ordinary Spanish folk have had enough of ‘our’ intrusion into their ways of life, they have my sympathy in many respects. Our resorts public here are likewise complaining now of similar issues to the Spanish .
Regarding aires, could the club offer such provision? Maybe but it will take a huge game change in my opinion from club and membership alike.0 -
Tim, I think the aire issue has been flogged to death on here with the general opinion seeming to be that it’s a venture for other organisations to undertake rather than CAMC. This is mainly because provision of aires would be to the advantage of only one sector of the membership which is already catered for within the present site network. As you know, to give an advantage to one group, disadvantages others.
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I can see Tim is not new to vanning, Micky, but he does, indeed, seem to be new to the forum which is why I was updating him on recent discussions on the subject in case he’s not aware.👍🏻
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I suspect wardens can’t win whatever they do. To a great extent be polite to wardens and they will be polite to you. However, I seem to remember reading a year or so ago that the club was short of site staff and was appointing quite a few at the last minute. I expect a proportion of those would find the job not as they expected. Add to that the several changes in site rules, including enforcement of 1 pm entry, all left to site staff to implement, it is not surprising things can become a bit fraught. I also think that we have an increased tendency for people to simply ignore rules. We have an increasingly “ entitlement” attitude amongst people. Now I do find club sites frequently too regimented in layout but if you are going to have a whole load of people living in close proximity I do think you need some rules. Agro then develops when they are not obeyed or enforced. I don’t think the rules on club sites are as bad as some make out. I frequently see comments on other forums about the club insisting which way round you have to pitch, obviously not the case. I suspect that many newer members never read the rules or info in the handbook. Don’t know if that info is on the web site, but I guess not likely to be read if you don’t get the handbook, which actually contains a lot of good info, especially for new caravanners or motorhomers. If members informed themselves better May be there would be fewer issues on sites.
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The Club has provided sites for one section of the membership for many years - for caravan owners. I mean grass sites in remote locations without access to shops or transport. And now TimSands posts on here asking for things to be reversed but is told Oh no, that would just be for one section of the membership. Well while Club does nothing that section of the membership is already going elsewhere and sites and CLs are closing. Surprise, surprise.
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How on earth to you arrive at the conclusion that CAMC provides sites for caravans only? MHs, trailer tents and sometimes tents are welcome as well. As I read it, Tim is not suggesting any sort of reversal but for different provision for MHs as opposed to trailer caravans.
Are you saying CAMC builds sites in the wrong places because I can’t see what else you’re getting at?
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I don’t think that is altogether true. The club are doing things and those are the very things that drive many comments being made. Also, I think we all, motorised caravaners or otherwise, are looking around at the alternative provision out there. There is a much bigger picture than just favouring one or the other to be seen, recognised and accounted for.
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Anyone thinking about joining the Club would do well to do some informed research about what the Club provides, where it provides it, what is there provided on the sites, at what costs, and then asking themselves, does this cater for what I want to do, regardless of type of outfit? Factor in that the actual Membership fee can be recouped with some of the deals you get from being a Member, and it’s still rather easy to think, yes, I will join, even if Club Sites themselves are only going to be a small % of stays. No point in joining if it doesn’t fit what you want to do.
I think things are a bit more complex for long standing Members, and the longer you have been a Member, the more any changes will impact on your staying a Member. Particularly so if much of what you originally joined for (see above) is now changing at a faster pace.
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Well while Club does nothing that section of the membership is already going elsewhere and sites and CLs are closing. Surprise, surprise.
I think many are going elsewhere but not solely motorhome owners. It is more of a backlash against prices by both caravan and motorhome owners alike. Motorhome owners do have an added choice of Aires and their establishment can cause a bit of a backlash from site owners. The recent establishment of an Aire at the Dover Truck Stop has caused a bit of a stir with complaints from site owners. All good competition in my view in much the same way as B&Bs and AirB&Bs are for hoteliers, but I don't see it as resulting in closure of sites. They close because they cannot attract customers probably because they are overpriced for what or where they are or both.
peedee
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Oooh - I didn't expect this reaction when I answered David's question at silly o'clock this morning. I've been through all the comments since my last post and the two things that stand out are - are mickysf's comment about intolerance to each other and Helen and Trevors's about wardens affecting the atmosphere on sites. I said to Ros, as we left the reception area - "Welcome to Stalag Luft III" - and that's how it felt. No problem, though - we just got on with it.
As for the intolerance bit - let me say that I don't believe that Covid has anything to do with it - that's just an excuse and it was there before 'covid'. We are now in the "me,me,me" world and "I'm more important than you" and, unfortunately us oldies have just got to accept it.Thank goodness there are still enough of us about to be able to support each other with old-fashioned values. I suspect (though will never know), that things will turn full circle
)What I see in this - are the dangers of too much centralisation - been through this twice before, both in the Police and St John Ambulance. I don't blame the Wardens - they are simply doing as instructed and following the party line - they're not in a position to argue (with any effect). The 'bean counters' have one objective in sight and are, sadly, not in touch with what is happening on the ground or what the consequences of their decisions may be - or perhaps, more to the point - can't react quickly enough.
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