Diesel, Petrol or Hybrid
Hi all, At the moment I have a Ford Mondeo 2 litre Diesel, it tows well and has good mpg results, 34 on latest trip. But I have started to wonder when the time comes to change which is the better option. Diesels pull well but every day drive to and from work is only 10 miles a day, so I am being to wonder what the alternatives are. If any body had any throughs i would be grateful, makes diesel petrol or hybrid. Many thanks.
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Unless you tow a very large and heavy van then I think the days of a diesel are over. I've posted this several times, but the short version is I replaced consecutive 2L diesels with a 1.5L Audi A3 petrol manual in 2019. It has 150 bhp and 250 N/m torque. It typically returned 32-40 mpg towing a 1200kg low profile Eriba Touring. I now tow a low profile but wide body Eriba Feeling, running at around 1350kg [max up to 1500kg] and achieve 30-36 mpg. From memory, when I towed from Merseyside to Devon I sat in 6th gear on cruise control until near Bristol. Modern petrol engines offer the torque over a far wider rev range than a modern diesel and are very relaxing to drive. Overall solo economy is also on a par with a diesel. I've had a genuine 76mpg on a long run. I know of a VW Golf owner running a hybrid version of this engine towing the same van and his figures are no better, but he paid a premium price for the Hybrid facility.
When it comes to change it will be petrol again for me, albeit by then a self charging hybrid mild assistance will probably be the norm. If my pockets are deep enough the Volvo XC40 would be at the top of my list.
If you are looking at the finances then it gets complicated when you run two vehicles. Then it may be worth while dropping to one and having this as a plug in hybrid.
Colin
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Putting aside budget and weight of caravan, there are 3 types of petrol hybrid. Mild, which is a small battery and electric motor set up to provide marginal support the ICE. The car will not run in any form of EV mode. Full, uses a larger battery/motor package which provides significant back up and can run in EV only mode for a few miles at lower speeds. Plug in hybrid as the name suggests is part EV, part ICE powered. These are charged the same as an EV or, can be charged from The engine and with regenerative braking. EV only range can be upto 60 miles with the very latest systems. Most are much less. The benefit of Full and Plug-in hybrids is they can bring diesel rivalling levels of power, torque and economy, albeit at a cost to buy new. The other disadvantage is they often come with quite low tow weight limits so care is needed when researching options. I have a a RAV4 PHEV and it suits our life style very well. The economy for a 2 tonne SUV is amazing and performance matches a hot hatch.
You need to decide your needs in a car now and in the near future. Research the options within your budget and when you have a short list go on the forums for the relevant models. Albeit another topic altogether Personally I think diesel is getting an unfair hammering. Had the same money invested in the ultimately dead end EV technology in recent years been spent on clean diesel tech, we would be better served.
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Flatcoat said:
Personally I think diesel is getting an unfair hammering. Had the same money invested in the ultimately dead end EV technology in recent years been spent on clean diesel tech, we would be better served.
Here here. The converts to EV's in the main still will not admit that massive pollution is caused by the manufacture of the things, extraction of rare metals for the batteries, not to mention the children in slave labour digging it out. Even the EV manufacturers estimate that an EV must be covering approx 80k miles or 10 years before they become carbon neutral (whatever that it is). Politicians jumped on this bandwagon without knowing what they were doing (not unusual for politicians), but at least the manufacturers are now seeing that the experiment is failing, and cutting back on production before they go bust (apart from heavily subsidised Chinese manufacturers).
EV's have a place, particularly for local journeys, but are proving (in the main) useless for long journeys.
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Although I’ll not deny you have a point, Nutsy, don’t forget that jobs are being created in the UK and they don’t involve child slave labour either. For instance, Lithium is being extracted from old china clay workings in Cornwall which can only be seen as a good re-use of resources.
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Maybe but it’s worth acknowledging that not everything is as negative as you paint it. 👍
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Toyota RAV4 Hybrid excellent 50mpg solo full consumption and 30 plus towing, towing weight 1650kg and bulletproof reliability, I read used as taxi's in part of the US recording over 300,000 miles. If serviced by Toyota an extended warranty up to 10 years.
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But not a new one though as 800kg tow limit. Somebody at Toyota was not thinking about an important sector of the market.
Colin
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But perhaps they are thinking about the environmental impact and the added harmful outputs when towing heavier units.
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I tow with an EV and now would not go back to owning or driving a diesel or petrol. I've had a Tesla Model X for the last 7 years and it makes a great tow car, albeit with limited range when towing, typically 90 to 100 miles on a full charge, so about half the solo range. Newer EV's are more efficient so 150 miles towing is probably doable. For touring in the UK, this is fine though we could do with more 'pull through' charging stations, to avoid the need to unhook every time. For a long drive e.g. to the south of France, this could become tedious so it is probably the one use-case where it might be better to hire a petrol hybrid for a couple of weeks.
My car is totally silent and creates no fumes on site or in towns and villages. How many times have you had your awning filled with choking smoke and fumes from a poorly maintained diesel SUV manoeuvring their caravan onto the pitch next to you? In the past, when the kids were young, we've had holidays ruined by this!
I am so glad that diesels will be banned in the near future.
I should add that I have free supercharging for life, as I was an early adopter with Tesla!
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We tow with a PHEV not quite had the confidence to go full EV, despite all the negative feed back regarding PHEV we went ahead, best move we have ever made. We would like to go to the next stage an EV with a Hyundai Ioniq 6 especially as they are increasing the battery size, ideally 120/150 mile towing range, to avoid unhitching the caravan to charge we would have to just change the way we caravan by making shorter distances between sites.
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A holiday ruined by someone manoeuvring a caravan into position with a diesel! Really?!
I also tow with an PHEV and yesterday towed 360 miles using the ICE, I always preserve the battery for local running around. Until EV’s can give me at least 200 mile towing range between refuelling and 5 minutes to refuel I am simply not interested. And don’t get me started on where and how the electricity is going to be generated for the thousands of cars on the move yesterday as families set off on their holidays. The queue to get into service stations were backing up onto the motorways so imagine all those trying to find working vacant charger. However good for you bring an early Tesla buyer and having free electricity for your car. Most people have to pay for their fuel from whatever source
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Tesla model X is priced from £105,000. Beyond my pay grade I’m afraid. WeBuyAnyCar is only offering me £7000 for my diesel Freelander.
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There is pollution created in making an EV battery. It does not take 10 years or 80K miles to pay it back, or become carbon neutral - it's more like 20K miles (in the EU) which for some folk is 1 year.
For the record the term "carbon neutral" in this case reflects the time (and miles) taken for the reduced carbon emitted in the use phase of the car to "pay off" the extra carbon emitted in the manufacture phase of the car. When compared to a similar vehicle which has a lower manufacture phase footprint (as it has no battery) but a higher use phase footprint (as it burns fossil fuel), and considering both the end of life phase and the carbon cost of the fuel (electricity) it is possible to determine the life-time carbon benefit from an EV.
For a recent article on the topic, have a look here.
There are no "children in slave labour" digging out the material for batteries. There are some child labourers (they are not slaves) who work in artisan mines for Cobalt in the DRC. Many EV batteries don't use cobalt (Tesla, Volvos new smaller battery EX30 both of which use Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) as opposed to Nickel cobalt Manganese (NCM)), unlike oil refining and almost all electronic items which do.
But because some do use cobalt, and manufacturers are being accused of supporting child labour, they go to great lengths to buy cobalt from ethical sources who do _not_ use child labour. Polestar and Volvo are such manufacturers, and use blockchain technology to track their cobalt from source to consumption. For information on the Polestar ethical sourcing, have a read here.
Where does the cobalt come from used in the processing of the diesel and petrol at your local forecourt? Is it traced and publicised at all?
The "experiment is failing" is an interesting take. According to the SMMT, EV registrations are up again year on year. Yes - for individual manufacturers there are challenges and some are modulating output to reflect demand. But the demand is growing.
I take it that your comment that EV's are proving (in the main) useless for long journeys, is based on personal experience? I can assure you it absolutely does not reflect my own experience, or indeed the experience of pretty much every EV driver I have had the pleasure to meet and talk to.
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ChocolateTrees,
I think we all agree your are an advocate of electric being the way forward and doing all you can to make it work.For that I applaud you.
Unfortunately for the majority of us this it is not the answer yet. You are fortunate in having the funds to cover the greater cost of a suitable vehicle, higher insurance costs, the extra time to allow for charge breaks to cover the distances some of us make and the patience to plan your journeys and cope with an infrastructure that is still not fit for purpose. The high costs of on the road charging, waiting for a charge point, chargers not working and having to unhitch a van are not appealing to your average caravan owner.
Last week I did two consecutive days of towing 380+ miles each day. Devon/Cornwall borders to Folkestone and on to near Rouen on dayone. Next day the journey continued and ended on I'l d'Oleron. I made 3 stops of 5 minutes to refuel but could have got away with 2 and short loo/stretch leg breaks every couple of hours. This would not have been possible with an electric vehicle in the same time frame.
You have made extensive comments on battery materials in your latest post, but omitted to comment on the pollution caused by producing the electricity they will use, the end of life disposal of the batteries and the increased pollution from the heavier tyre wear of supporting a heavier vehicle.
I have said in other posts that I would like an electric vehicle and I expect many members share this view, but for the moment I'm sorry to say this way forward, with a caravan on the back, is the preserve for a select few for the present.
Colin
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My post was not intended to persuade folks to sell their diesel and jump to an EV. It was to correct misinformation that pervades around the green or ethical credentials of EVs, and their status as a "failed experiment". The facts simply don't support those views.
I am not suggesting that EVs are right for everyone yet, I fully understand that they are not. Especially for the towing community, the need for larger cars with decent tow limits makes for newer, more expensive models, and these have yet to percolate to the used market to a significant degree.
Insurance costs can be higher, but can also be lower - depends on circumstances. Extra time to charge and time to plan, also a matter of behaviour and location. If you tow 380 miles a day and can only live with 5 min stops - it's not for you. A contributor to another forum towed an Eriba over 700 miles in one day with their EV, quite happily. And on the road charging costs over the channel - cheaper than petrol or diesel, though only in certain places in the UK at the moment (specifically, open Tesla superchargers).
Pollution from electricity generation is part of the grid mix and is fully accounted for in the use phase costs, as are CO2 costs for end of life recycling (disposal as in land fill is illegal).
There is no increased pollution from tyre wear on a heavier vehicle if you use the right tyres for that vehicle. Many are reporting 30K to 40K miles wear from a set. I only got 23K from mine - but that was till 8K more than the 15K a set I used to get from the previous diesel car.
And again - the choice to tow electric (or drive electric solo) is down to the individual. Personal preference is key, and that choice is still available and will be for some considerable time.
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