Electric Hook up
Comments
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Surely the non-electric option is just that - no electric usage? Therefore, no use of the bollard or electrical infrastructure equals a bigger fee reduction🤷🏻♂️
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I think CS raises an interesting point in one of his posts. He asks whether metering is what members actually want? Going by past experience of major changes within the Club there seems to be quite a body of members that prefer the status quo? It seems daft to me that the Club will base its decision on what happens on two quite minor sites? If some members struggle with technology they are unlikely to want another layer imposed on them. The only information we have been given so far is facts and figurers on the reduction of use but none on the acceptance of metering. Is it possible that metering will be abandoned? If the Club were to extend the option not to connect to the bollard for a reduction in fee fees might that not meet the needs of the majority who are arguing for the change without going to full metering? Those that want to the self sufficient would be quite happy. However introducing metering will seem to many members just a smoke and mirrors decision because they will still pay as much in total if not more.
David
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If we come onto a site for a holiday, is the first thing we want to do is to have to set up an account for our electricity usage? As a previous response said, if we go to a hotel is there a meter to record our usage?
Despite the previous responses regarding some folk leaving the heating on all day whilst they are out, has anyone actually seen this? Rather than worry about do have we have enough money on the meter (we have been to cottages where you had to feed the meter with coins), is it not simpler to include the average cost of electricity in the pitch price? To upgrade every pitch to something that records electricity usage, pay a third party to monitor and administer the payment system, seems very over the top. Why not extend that concept to water? We are mostly now on water meters at home, so for the service pitches why not record the amount of water used?
This all seems a “sledgehammer to crack a nut”. The cost of everything we use is shared amongst all the users. Some will use more, some will use less. At each point in the process we will either gain or lose. That’s life.1 -
KB, upto a point I agree with your post....why bother? There are certainly simpler ways to manage usage accurately without third parties getting involved nor having to open accounts online etc...
how do I know this?....because our long term winter site does it....by recording the meter in the office at the start of the stay and again at the end...and then prepares a bill to go with the one for the site stay...
of course, contrary to most UK sites, we pay in arrears so we know exactly what we've used and need to pay for, rather than loading cards or accounts prior to usage.
...back to why....probably because (as I mentioned above) the electricity component of the pitch price is now so large that it has driven the pitch element of what we pay everyday (added to the occupant charges) to pretty high levels.
The club must realise this and is looking for a way to reduce the headline charge and if some customers can manage without electricity the club can give them a 'reduced' daily charge which may not (seem to) be so 'out there'.
couple that with the huge move towards motorhoming and the different style of touring it can bring over caravanning (more stops but shorter stays) and the desire of owners to make their vans more autonomous with solar panels, larger batteries, big water tanks etc and you'll see that more and more can stop at a site for (say) two to five days and not need water, waste or power...
again, the club realises (must realise?) this and (as part of its 'and Motorhome' name change) is perhaps trying to cater for this type of shorter, less dependent touring style.
agreed, it won't suit everyone and therefore the club needs to retain some form of status quo, hence my favouring the simple 'EHU/non EHU' option over metering as I agree it's a sledgehammer.....etc, etc.
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I don’t think the majority of Club Site users will prefer metered bollards. Some won’t want to be bothered with the tech side, some won’t want to be watching their spend, some (us included) won’t consider the discounts given on already high fees enough to tempt trying a metered pitch.
Conversely, if the Club doesn’t do something, it runs the risk of everyone still filling their boots with power consumption as it’s an inclusive price, and others being utterly priced out of using Club Sites so they go elsewhere.
Its time for some honesty about how pitches are actually priced, what element is the power consumption, what is infrastructure/staffing element, and what is profit? At least that way Members will have an idea of what their pitch spend is going towards, and make a much better decision about if they are happy to support the prices as they are. In the past, there might have been an element of some of the popular sites, with higher prices, helping to keep some of the less popular sites going, and open for a longer season. But I don’t think this is quite the same now.
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"However introducing metering will seem to many members just a smoke and mirrors decision because they will still pay as much in total if not more."
Not necessarily true David - if it's done in a fair and transparent way. I've posted elsewhere about our first experience of metered electricity when we stayed at Skybarn Farm CL last March. Nicola worked out that the average cost of electricity over the year per user/night was about £5 and therefore reduced the pitch price from £25 to £20 when meters went operational.
We used our van as 'normal' for the first 24 hours and I was shocked to see that we had used over £10 worth of electricity - but it was very cold! I then switched to running the heating and hot water on gas (Safefill) and the daily usage dropped to just over £5 - so we were back to 'square one' or thereabouts.
When we went again in October (much warmer) with the same regime, electricity charges were £1.70 pn and I probably used well under £10 worth of gas all week. So I was well in front and quite pleased that we had made that saving. However, we were, of course burning fossil fuel instead of using, possibly, greener energy.
ttda - makes a very valid point about transparency of pricing and somehow, I can't see that happening with the club in the same way that Skybarn has achieved.
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Again, there are ways to minimise cost and using pumped gas is certainly one of them.
ive just read a post about someone changing to a diesel heater from gas as he was using one bottle a week at £42+ which is almost as bad as electric prices.
if you have Safefill as above you can switch to gas for the heating and knock the leccy usage right back but many members won't be kitted up this way leading to them being between a rock (expensive gas) and a hard place (expensive electric).
I can't see it happening but I agree with TTDA in that prices have just risen and risen without much detail into why it's happened.
the club won't be interested in revealing their financial breakdown but cost elements in all areas have risen and we, the customers, will just have to decide if we see sufficient value.
summer vanning can still be exceptionally good value by using THS sites at £10-£15 against club/commercial prices approaching £50.
winter vanning (in the uk) is going to become a problem as folk realise how much a weeks electric will cost in really cold weather or what they need to equip themselves with to turn to an alternative supply....gas or diesel.
weve been on a club site this week and, as the boilers in the block have been out of action as they are being replaced, we've had no showers for 5 days or toilets for part of the time (of course, no discount or even a free night!) so we've needed heat and hot water in the van...im sure we have used plenty of electricity which would have been a serious addition to the bill if metering had been used.
Whist spring and autumn camping will likely continue, i reckon winter camping will start to become too expensive for some vanners as the (slightly) cheaper prices at that time of year are more than offset by the electric costs.
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I think Richard you are more prepared than most because you have the back up of your Safefill. Maybe I am wrong but I suspect that most members rely more on the supply from an electricity connection. If you ignore the high use visit but look at the one where you used a mix of metered electricity and gas the cost to you was very similar to the £5 reduction offered by the CL. I wonder what the difference would have been had you not had Safefill cheaper gas? I think what I am suggesting is that if members see that with what they pay for metered electricity, less the site reduction amounts to about the same as under the current system some might just ask why are we going to all this trouble? The people that will probably notice a bigger difference are those that go away in the winter but I wonder what percentage of members hang up their EHU cables at the end of October and get them out again at Easter? I would suggest it is over the winter months where metering would come into its own but I think the Club have to be sure they are not taking a hammer to crack a nut so to speak? There is also the question of the operation of the system. Will it be a requirement for members to have some sort of computer device with them or a smart phone and we have all seen posts on here with people saying they would never own such a device! I think what I am basically saying is that the Club need to take a considered view of whether metering is really the way forward and will provide benefits for both the members and the Club.
David
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I wonder what the difference would have been had you not had Safefill cheaper gas?
£10 would buy about 5.5kg at the Morrisons where we normally fill up. Calor charge £28 for a 6kg refill according to their website. So for most on a CAMC site £25.50 if they operated as r&r. I think I would definitely prefer things to stay the same if we still used Calor. As it is I would prefer no change, but not bothered if there is. Not much of our use is in very cold weather.
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We don’t have safefill, but then being quite old our MH only has a small fridge, so we roll along nicely and cheaply with what we have. We have done Summer holidays almost totally off grid, the odd night on a CL to top up bike batteries, and even the one time our fridge stopped working on gas didn’t phase us. We are out most days, so easy enough to pick up any fresh food we need. Not perhaps how many would want to tour nowadays, but perfectly doable with a bit of planning and compromise. We go back to the drinks bottles in a bucket of cold water generation😁
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"I would suggest it is over the winter months where metering would come into its own but I think the Club have to be sure they are not taking a hammer to crack a nut so to speak?"
I think it would 'come into its own' from the Clubs perspective, to try and curb the profligate use mentioned by TTDA earlier, but with prolonged cold (say, Christmas and New Year breaks) most will need/want to have the van kept warm...they may spend more time in it!
but this will put severe price pressure onto those 'late year holidays' as pitches will already be at peak prices...as I mentioned earlier, lowering the price by £8 and then having to use £10-£15 of electric doesn't work.
again, as TTDA mentions, the club is probably either going to realise it's just not worth it for members or it will need to go right back to the drawing board to establish new 'proper' vfm pitch prices that includes electric.
for the customer, this will (should) mean that the summer 'seasonal' element and the winter 'electric' element results in prices much closer together than some sites offer.
the current process of the 'computer' just adding x% to every days price (hence the silly amounts littering the price boards) needs a real overhaul.
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Club pitch pricing does seem to have got more and more involved and convoluted since 2000. It’s not just a new, last couple of years thing by any means, but there’s no doubt that there’s been a huge escalation in charges, and I personally don’t think it’s all to do with fuel costs. Club is refurbishing sites, buying new ones, and, has expanded its HQ staff quite a bit. There’s no real transparency around pitch pricing on a Club site, unlike you get on a CL of course. So it’s a lot more difficult if you want to understand how Membership income is apportioned.
I’m honest and up front enough to admit to a degree of miffedness at what happens on some Club Sites, sometimes. We had a pitch at Clumber Park last September with our little MH, parked up with another couple of ladies both in small camper vans. As you do, we got chatting, shared a few cuppas, and watched a huge fabulous coach sized A class, with sliders, everything electronic, pull onto a close by pitch. Owner was very friendly, and we got chatting with him. We were a bit miffed because we had paid the same price as he had, he was delighted because he had paid the same price as us. No axe to grind with him, he was filling his boots topping everything up. We were all running a small fridge, and charging a bike battery. Hence for me, and I suspect others, a one price for everyone somehow creates huge winners and losers. There’s just not enough choice or incentive with Club Sites nowadays, and I don’t think metering will be total answer. But it’s not really that much of a personal issue, we compromise and go elsewhere, utilise lots of different options.
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There is a report on the metering trial at Wyatts Covert in the January magazine, and in that it states that consumption of electricity has dropped by 30%, but there are no details given.
Was the consumption via bollards able to be measured separately previously? So 30% less via bollards, or is it 30% less over the whole site?
If 30% less via bollards, has use in facility blocks increased, or not?
How has the weather been compared to last year? That will affect the amount used for heating.
Is the ratio of MHs to caravans using the site the same as before? MHs will be more likely to have refillable gas, and be able to be "off grid" for longer.
A lot of variables to consider.
Metering is not something that bothers us, and would not stop us using a site, though the price being charged per kWh and the site fee otherwise might well do so!
We do have refillable gas, so can use that for heating if it would work out less expensive, which at 40p+ per kWh it certainly would.
Using gas also gets the van warmed up more quickly, so we often use it for a few hours at the start of an Easter or Autumn stay on a site
However, we do not use the caravan after late October, or before mid March, so all largely academic.
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2023 was the hottest year on record.
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The Club have already mentioned metering as being a fairer way of charging for electricity, and TDA's post above just shows how true this is.
We are all used to having our electricity, and gas, metered at home, so why should the fact we are on holiday make a difference? When arguing that hotels do not do so, I do not think that is really comparable to camp sites.
Hotel rooms do vary in size, but are larger rooms not more expensive to start with? And a larger cottage more expensive to rent? Both hotels and cottages are more likely to be well insulated, and in most cases not using electricity for heating, which as we all know, works out far more expensive than using gas.
Comparing electricity use at home with what you use on a campsite is not really sensible either, unless you are using the same fuels for the same purposes, and of course there is the use of alternatives for showering and dishwashing while on a campsite.
When the price of electricity was much lower than today, these differences did not add up to such a large cost difference between use by smaller and larger outfits, but that has all changed now.
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"There is a report on the metering trial at Wyatts Covert in the January magazine, and in that it states that consumption of electricity has dropped by 30%, but there are no details given"
Thanks for that factual info, Kj 👍🏻. As you say, there are factors which may need to be taken into consideration, eg see Corners' post.
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Just done a few calculations based on the AGM figures for 2022 which are the latest figures available.
Site revenue £72 million
Surplus after operating costs approx £1.7 million
Site nights for 2022 2.44 million
Working on those figures The average price per night was £29.50
The cost site staff 90p per site night
Surplus/Profit 75p per site night
Electricity £6.2 million, so an average of £2.54 per site night.
As we are talking electricity here, in the main, there is no separation of electricity usage between pitches and other on site services as far as I can tell.
More than happy for someone to check my calculations based on the figures provided here
David
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I do not think you can apply that generally.
For us, while we were away in the caravan, 2022 was much warmer, and here at home the winter months of 2023 certainly did not feel mild. Easter 2023 was cold, wet and windy where we were.
Without an accurate record for a particular place, it will be very difficult to know how the weather may have affected the use of fuels.
The Club saying a 30% reduction at Wyatts Covert certainly lacks detail, and they have not yet completed a full year on the trial.
Nor have they given any details on occupancy rates, which may reflect whether members are in favour of metering......or not.
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UK or Worldwide Corners? And I know our Summer here (May to September) wasn’t anything like as hot as 2020 during first COVID lockdown. Something to consider I agree, but it’s not an exact science, like all the other variables.
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I'm not K in any way am I?, just stating that it was.
But certainly it was for me (TDA) I remember a very hot June cycling almost every day with temperatures up here in the mid to high twenties, July was about low twenties, and southern Scotland in August was very warm, almost hot as I remember a swim in the sea from the Garlieston site. We had 25C at one point. It was certainly warm to hot in September as I recall being at Manchester airport with just under 30C but then 35C in Italy. We had some great lakes weather for climbing in October.
And I do recall posting that my last cut of the grass was late November/early December and others posting the same thing, so yes it was a warmer year for me.
As to your last two paragraphs K that is what I alluded to upthread so I'm not sure why you replying to me to with that? Unless you're agreeing with me.
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At the end of the day, or season or whatever club prices and the way they are managed or averaged, are what they are, people can either pay or not. Agree or not. After lots of cheaper and better sites out there we're often told but then everyone wants a club sites, otherwise why not just go somewhere else, there must be something about club sites I guess?
But lots do go to club sites.
As for me I'm not in favour of metering as it's just another added complication to sort out. I don't abuse but will certainly use whatever I need to enjoy my time away. If it happens it happens and no it will not change anything about the way I will holiday and yes we've used holiday cottages with metering and no it didn't, but then again I don't see any metering in holiday lets now. To go away worrying about shall I use this or not is beyond me but each to their own. I also think it's a myth that people will use every possible appliance while it's all inclusive, why?
Most certainly doesn't happen with all inclusive 24/7 food and drink holidays in my experience. I understand that some may not want or need what a club site offers, well an obvious answer there and leave club sites to those that do. It would be a sad state if everywhere was the same in my view.
I think people often forget it's a holiday and no different to a holiday cottage, all inclusive hotel, cruise...
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A good point....but we should also remember that many larger units (perhaps like the one TTDA was next to) are so geared up NOT to hook up that it's actually a bit of a pain to do so (poor owners actually having to get outside) compared to pressing an electronic switch in the van to turn the gas on (large underslung tank or refillables) and with the 12v supply and mains inverter on all the time constantly being replenished by several solar panels.
yes, a van like that will have a large fridge freezer (like the majority of vans these days) but may be running it off cheap gas and not even require water during their stay...
also, while others may be charging a couple of e-bikes, the large van owner might not be or doing it from their inverter🤷🏻♂️, so it may turn out the large van uses less leccy than a small one??
too many missing factors to make anything at all out of the clubs one line update.
when the facts do come out, it needs some sensible interpretation to turn them into useful information that could determine policy going forward.
still so many options ahead but, as mentioned earlier, whatever the club chooses (even do nothing is perfectly valid) it has to be fair for the members as well as the club.
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I think the big outfit was a year rounder YT, he was like us there for an event. He was surprised to pay same as us, and was hooked up using as much as he could, as it was included in price. There’s no incentive not too.
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Last year was the UK's second warmest on record, according to provisional data from the Met Office.
This puts it just behind 2022, which recorded an average temperature of only 0.06C higher.
For both Wales and Northern Ireland, 2023 was their hottest year on record0 -
This Winter has certainly been a lot warmer here in South Yorks. I actually have roses in bloom😱paltry little buds, but other plants from the Summer are clinging on, and I have seen trees around in blossom. Scary really, I like a good hard cold spell to kill off a lot of the garden bugs. We don’t have our heating coming on in day either (set at 16c).
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If the Club go down the route of metered electricity for site pitches, will the same logic be applied to the clamping pods that they seem to be so enthusiastic about installing? At the moment the price for a glamping pod, safari tent etc, seems to include unlimited use of electricity.
Any thoughts or information about this?
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As I understand it the Pods are run as a separate enterprise so they may not follow suit, but who knows what might happen in the future? It might depend on the seasonal use of such units?
David
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Our friends paid less for two nights in a Glamping Pod (one of those with everything in, including ensuite) than we did for two nights on a near empty site in November. If there’s logic in how the Club applies it’s pricing policy, it’s not registering with us yet🤷♀️
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