Wild overnight parking- Scotland
Comments
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Many councils appear to have a "keep out" mentality yet complain when their town/village is dying for lack of trade. Providing overnight parking, possibly with black/grey/fresh provision for a nominal fee would be far more welcoming rather than encouraging potential visitors to keep on driving. A 48/72 hour restriction on use of facilities with a 'prompt removal/towing policy enforced' would prevent permanent/long term settling.
The problem with many sites is that they provide services that aren't required by most motorhomers and charge substantially for doing so.
Nimbyism seems a peculiarly English trait.
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I met a lady at a party - a respectable lady and a respectable party - and she told me about touring with a Motorhome in Britain.
Her opening shot was I hate caravan sites, so I listened. Her objection was that a motorhome touring lifestyle did not lend itself to planning a route and booking sites in advance - and certainly not paying in advance when she had no idea whether or when she would arrive somewhere. Or whether she would even set off if the weather was bad.
She was an independent spirit and not taken with the idea of not being allowed into a site before 1300 and told to leave by midday - she said I stop when I want to stop. And in no way was she prepared to tell a warden on arrival how long she would be staying and pay upfront for that time. She might stay or she might not. . She wasn’t over keen on wardens anyway and not a lady to be bossed about or told what to do.
She decidedly didn’t like sites with tarmac roadways and street lights but when Isuggested CLs she sniffed and said they are mostly in the middle of nowhere - an idea from the past which has outlived it’s time. And she would have to join a Club to use them.
There are Club members who switch from caravan to motorhome late on in life who will continue to toe the line and stay at the sort of sites they have always used, but the new wave of motorhomers have ideas which those Club members will never comprehend.6 -
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There are two ways for an authority to 'deal' with MHs...
in my experience (15 years of continental travel using all sorts of MH stop over points) if vans are welcomed, folk respect what's been provided and do respond by not abusing things and they spend time (and money) in the community"
i think we have been round this loop previous in another post, but just to reiterate, after 14 years of having lived in an area that was blighted by MH's, all i can say is "good riddance to bad rubbish" and we had a lot of that, portable bbq's dumped in plastic bins overnight causing many fires and destroying the bins, disgusting stuff found buried on beaches, Dyno rod having to be called out frequently to the public loo's that were made available, car parks and the promenade full of Mh's many staying for several days, Gosport/Fareham LC's introuduced car parking fees, height barriers on most car parks, and banned overnight camping/sleeping in MH's etc, they did provide a number of special bays for MH's but these are seldom used as you have to pay.
Did local business suffer?, dont think so, most of those that arrived in MH''s stopped at the major supermarkets which they passed en-route. Now we have the occasional MH a few camper vans, but we did recover our car parks and our promenade much to the delight of the many, especially elderly residents who live in the area, the only down side i can see is an increase in street parking close to beaches as a result of the introduction of charging to park.
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"but the new wave of motorhomers have ideas which those Club members will never comprehend"
very true, but, as someone said i think up post, within this "new wave of motorhomers" are those who have never experienced camping at all, and just do not understand that it is not right to dump your cassette in the sea, or your grey waste down the local drains, or worse still leave the stock cock open and allow grey waste to run out into the carpark, "Oh! it is only washing up water" they say when challenged.
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Rufs, I'm certainly not saying all MHers are saints, however I've never (ever) seen anyone dumping a cassette load into a hedge or anywhere other than the correct areas.
as others have said, real off grid MHers will even take a spare cassette to extend off grid stays to 6 days or so....if they were partial to hedge dumping, why would they bother with a 2nd one?
We can off grid for 6/7 days without the need for water or grey waste...but we'd need somewhere to empty the cassette...if we wanted more time I'd get a second cassette.
perhaps it's a uk thing...this careless waste you see...in every other country I've been in (France, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Denmark) I don't see the things you describe....perhaps I don't monitor the situation in the same way...im just on an aire doing my own thing.
perhaps (UK?) folk don't have the same respect, perhaps they feel it's their 'right' to do these things? I don't know...but it's not something I see despite using many, many Aires..
the write ups and reviews I see regularly on sites like park4night are so 'grateful to the local community' for the provision of the service...we/they realise how lucky we are to have these pretty well everywhere.
different mentality, I reckon.
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I get your points, but the 'criticism' of off gridding MHers has been around since well before Covid etc...
despite what some say about Aires there's a certain amount of the real freedom of touring in that system, where folk don't need to book, decide where they're heading, pull in when they like not to a schedule etc...
It's this freedom that many swear by when comparing touring attitudes here and away.
In the UK CAMPRA is working hard to move things along but IMV the tide of MH ownership is outgrowing the rate of any fledgling overnight provision.
in France, for example, pretty much EVERY town or village has such provision along with thousands more dotted along coastlines, in forests, in the mountains and not forgetting large cities which might have several according to its size.
we are so grateful for the historic development of that system and wish we had something similar here but I know its will never happen.
No one does anything here without making a buck, just look at car parking charges...what should a MH park for 24hrs for free when a car is....£x?
Why does it work in France? the cars don't pay either🤷🏻♂️(Gallic shrug😉)
Moderator comment: Post slightly edited.
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"Rufs, I'm certainly not saying all MHers are saints, however I've never (ever) seen anyone dumping a cassette load into a hedge or anywhere other than the correct areas"
our area did seem to fair particularly badly, one of the reasons i feel, is that we have several very good car parks on the sea front with good access and views across to the IOW etc,
i and some of my swimming friends etc probably see lots you would not sea, i walk/cycle/swim these areas almost daily in different areas depending on tide times, I speak to lots of different people and have not spoken to any locals who do not think the LC's did the right thing, we do get some moans and groans from the old folk who cannot walk to the beach but used to drive down do a bit of walking, have a cuppa and read of newspaper etc, FOC, now they have to pay.
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We are in France at the moment, we’ve visited since 1989, this time from Calais down to Provence now on the way back. We tow, so aires are not open to us as stopovers, but they seem well used and properly used by all we have seen and they aren’t vile filthy places. Off the motorways, every village/parish etc., seems to have a MH service point and they are very frequently signposted on the highways and byways. This is the answer and heavy penalties for those who don’t use them. Of course, money has to be found to finance and maintain such facilities, so who pays? Tourist tax? Road tolls?
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I would say our current touring attitude is one of spontaneity and enjoying places that are special to us, be it rural or urban. We have no wish to upset anyone though in doing this, so are seeking out legal stopovers, and wouldn’t dream of leaving a mess or being a nuisance to anyone. We don’t however dismiss any form of stopover, this would be merely cutting off our noses to spite our faces. So we grin and bear sites that have (usually too many) rules, embrace thankfully the lovely sites where things are done on trust, and if we find a good spot provided by organisations like pubs, LA’s, Forestry, NT, etc… we give them a go.
The only thing I would say, is that you do have to be careful in this country. (Cannot comment around overseas, haven’t done it yet, but it will happen). There are some very unfriendly communities, who will want barriers to keep their personal bit of paradise free from visitors. There is a very real threat in terms of crime, we have moved on from a couple of what seemed nice places when we found drug dealing going on, local low life’s getting together to just be a nuisance, etc… There are elements of this in almost any urban area, and rural locations have their own issues.
We’ve also witnessed some appalling behaviour from some tourers, hypocrites that would condemn the Travelling community, yet seem to think that it’s ok for them to litter, not pay even a token amount for a service provided, etc.. Thankfully such sights have been rare, but I do wonder at times if this country has an attitude problem over certain issues, driven by elements of a nasty press. A lot of folks just enjoying certain hobbies, lifestyles get pilloried at times by a blinkered but vocal few. Very sad😞
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I don't know the answer to your question, C, but I expect the administrative process will be different to here anyway...
I do know that the local Mairie is usually responsible for the administration do the Aires, some are often situated behind the Town Hall (again, every village has one...)...
we went to one once, thus situated and saw a notice stating that we could only stay 48 hours. As I didn't know how the timing was managed, I went into the town hall to check, met the Mayor who welcomed us to his village and stated with enthusiasm that we were welcome to stay as long as we liked👍
im not quite sure what or why it is, but there is certainly something different over there in those who use and manage both ends of the facility.
don't mean to get too far away from the OP which is about wild camping in Scotland, not comparing 'Aires' in the uk with those overseas, but the system could well be an answer but it needs a decision from 'on high' along with funding if something is going to be done to keep pace with those needing legal places to stay.
the sort of folk who enjoy this type of touring cant/won't be forced onto campsites...they'll just shrug their shoulders and head where they are more welcome.
these initiatives have to be two way win-win and, as mentioned by CY above, putting a time limit on duration and a towaway clause in the T/C keep usage to those who are happy with these arrangements.
below is the wonderful Aire at St Martin de Re, a world Heritage site where between November and March you can stay for €5 (£4.30) a night for as many nights as you like. In 'peak' is appallingly expensive at €10 (£8.60) and limited to 72 hours parking.
service bourne and rubbish disposal adjacent.
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Forgot photo, lol....just a simple parking area, plenty for many MHers requirements for a few days, these things don't have to be particularly over the top.
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Ruffs you make some very good points, and far more importantly you make them from someone (and your local community) who is actually affected rather than passing MHs.
If these are to be provided then it should be people and communities like yourself that have the final say not people who come and go and expect private car parks and churches to provide and/or spend money to adapt them. Like you I don't think much money is spent locally anyway.
I can't think of many churches certainly in the north est and west, and other tourist spots we've been to (including Italy) who car parks lare empty apart from Sundays. There's usually a parish centre, attached school and cemeteries. Certainly round here. There was a MH about ten years ago who took up four spaces at our church which was well used by the school. The parish priest just chained up one wheel with a note to say he wanted a £20 donation to remove it. The MHers said they would call the police and he said fine I'll be out in about an hour after the school mass. They paid up!
Like I said you see far more than one passing MH and the effects they can have for the local community so you and they should have the final say, and it does, sadly, only take one MH to spoil the reputation for all.
Moderator comment: Post slightly edited.
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Cornwall has been similarly affected by the inconsiderate element amongst motorhomers with the result that many restrictions are now in place. I know of one local MH-er who persuaded the Council to talk about overnight provision in car parks and it was looking promising. Then local elections came along and councillors became more interested in hanging onto their seats and the MH overnighting issue fizzled out.
I think Devon has probably made more headway with several local councils, particularly South Hams, allowing overnighting in certain car parks.
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Yes I think that's as it should be, local people getting to say yes or no.
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It’s a shame the Cornish effort never really got the research or debating time it deserved. My instinct is that local Council Tax payers may well have been happy to see the issue controlled and contained rather than continue with a 'problem' element in their midst. Even if I’m wrong and opinion had gone the other way, at least it would have been a local democratic decision.
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I have just spent the day in a Cotswold town. I arrived at 1045L, the available motorhome parking places were full. Some had obviously been there overnight from the conversation I had with the parking attendant. I was directed to an overflow area a little further out from the centre but still within easy walking distance of the centre. I paid £5 to park all day and spent about £75 on coffees, lunch, ice creams and groceries.
That is £75 plus the parking fee that businesses will never get in your area Rufs. The same will apply to any area that does not wake up to the boom in motorhome/campervan ownership.
peedee
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+1
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"That is £75 plus the parking fee that businesses will never get in your area Rufs. The same will apply to any area that does not wake up to the boom in motorhome/campervan ownership."
dont need it peedee, just come back from swimming so passed thru Lee-on-the-Solent,
at least 4 ice cream parlours all heaving, fun fair on the green on the sea front heaving, local pub on the sea front heaving, all the car parks looked full, no MH's bogging 2 bays, well they cant get in so no problem, i counted just 2 MH's parked on the prom, it was 24 degs today, Solent like a mill pond
seriously peedee, i dont think local businessess have missed out, or i would have heard them screaming.
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Just for information in case you are not aware, the Camping Car Parks network of Aires in France allow Caravans at certain times of year on their Mon Village sites.
The price is still based on it being an Aire and during the dates caravans are allowed the facility block is open for use. Many of these types of sites are former Municipal sites. we've stayed on a good few of them now and find them very acceptable. Some open as early as June and remain open until October. If you regularly travel in France during the high season it would certainly be worth a look at.
Where we live in Scotland we are not bothered by MH's parking up but we have seen places were the tent campers have made a real mess of car parks by Lochs and rivers.
We have travelled the NC500 twice now and not seen anyone abusing the countryside, I've been told it happens and I don't dispute that it does especially in high season. There is a distinct lack of campsites and official parking areas for the number of vehicles that want to travel and stay. Adverts for the NC500 and other popular tourists destinations are still in magazines and on TV so folk think its all hunky dory to just set off and explore like the adverts tell you to. Even this club gives false impressions in their adverts.
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I can't see, or indeed have seen, any area not favoured with MH parking provided by local councils being devoid of MHs any more so than those that do.
In Dumfries and Galloway there is (according to D&G council) nothing west of Dumfries yet the area was very well used by MHs right up to the most westerly point on the Mull of Galloway.
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Exactly they read/see the adverts for touring with a MH and believe it to be all lovely and possible, as if they were the only ones to be doing it. What a surprise they get when they find that the campsites are full and they have nowhere to park up. No one told them they would need to book, no one told them the toilet would only last 1 day with 6 of them using it. the problem is they only read and see what they want to. these type of folk are in the minority but as always they are the ones that spoil it for the majority.
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Certainly that’s a contributory factor but I don’t think "the vast majority of problems" can be laid at their door. As TG said, "these type of folk are in the minority" and, indeed, hire vans themselves are in the minority which suggests the offenders are more often than not in their own vans.
It's not often I’ve seen a hire van in Cornwall but the spots renowned for problems can be seen populated by non-hire vans. Obviously they don’t all cause litter/mess issues but the very fact that they overnight where they shouldn’t is technically a problem in itself.
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I think you have misunderstood TG's comment, but I will leave it to her to correct you.
However if this minority are unable to services their vans because they can't find places on site those sme sites could help alleviate the problem by allowing service and refresh visits.
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I’m not quite sure what you’re saying but I think you might be suggesting that full sites should allow wild campers to use service points when they can’t get legitimate pitches. Whilst that is entirely up to site owners to decide, it would not alleviate the perceived problem of vans overnighting in places where it is not permitted.
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I can’t speak for Scotland but here in inland Cornwall I can be pretty sure of five places where there will be motorhomes tonight.
A pub which says we have room for 15 in the little field across the road. £15 a night plus £7 if you want one of our new hook ups - but entirely free if you book a table and eat with us.
A pub which says we are only supposed to take five and they are supposed to be members of a Club, but never mind.
Another pub which says we only have a car park, but we are not tied to a Club and it’s £10 whether you eat or not.
A farm shop where if you ask the owner or manager you can stay in their car park free of charge
The old WW2 airfield on Davidstow moor which is unfenced and not watched over, and maybe the open moorland towards St Breward village too.
I know of other spots which I would use if I were a visitor, and farmers I would speak to, but those five or six are all within ten miles of my home and there is never local alarm or controversy - unless it’s a full on rave on the airfield site. But that’s another story.
Private enterprise seems to work pretty well for motorhomers down here - although Cornwall Council provides nothing and the local parish councils are utterly hopeless.
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It’s much the same around here, Euro, and it’s good to see local businesses being enterprising. No one I know of objects to the pubs etc opening up their grounds in this way either.
That's not the same as wildcamping, though, when folk overnight on cliff tops, in lay-bys and even residential streets where overnighting is not permitted.
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"A pub which says we have room for 15 in the little field across the road. £15 a night plus £7 if you want one of our new hook ups - but entirely free if you book a table and eat with us."
Wow! first thoughts are, how big is the field, do they provide any seperation or do you just park as you like it, do they provide any fire fighting equipment, not that i use club sites very often, but these are some of the things you pay for in your pitch fee, i think you call it "peace of mind"
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I was on a club site and an overseas family were quite surprised when they checked the day before travelling in their motorhome that all the sites in Edinburgh were full (in summer!). But don't worry they had noticed that there were parking spaces at an area called Fettes so would be able to overnight there! Fettes happens to be the location of the police headquarters in Edinburgh!
Apparently it is not the done thing to book a site in advance.
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